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Further Thoughts on Abortion

Last month's post on the morality of abortion generated - as one might have expected - a wide variety of impassioned responses. Happily, the debate remained mostly civil, which is a rarity when it comes to this issue and one that's entirely due to the thoughtful, rational commenters here at Daylight Atheism.

There were several issues I didn't get into in that post, since I wanted to focus on the core issue of whether and under what circumstances obtaining an abortion can be judged a moral or immoral act. Some of those other issues were explored in the comments in that thread. But there are a few others that didn't come up, and in this post I want to write some more about them.

One of the most remarkable facts about the abortion debate is that the groups which say they want to stop abortion are overlooking one of the most effective ways to achieve this. Namely, most groups which oppose abortion also oppose comprehensive sex education and the distribution of contraception, two measures which have proven to be highly effective at reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies, and therefore the number of abortions. If the conservatives' goal was to prevent abortion to the greatest extent possible, why wouldn't they be all in favor of these measures? Why wouldn't they be eager participants in the effort to make contraception as widely available as possible?

If anything, we find the opposite. Most religious groups which oppose abortion are also against contraception. They oppose the teaching of responsible sexual practice in schools, favoring abstinence-only programs which have been repeatedly shown to be ineffective. They favor putting as many obstacles and roadblocks as possible in the way of men and women who want to use contraception; some of them want to ban it altogether. In short, they favor the policies that are certain to lead to a greater number of unwanted pregnancies - which means a greater number of abortions - not to mention a greater number of STDs, unmarried mothers, and all the other ills that come with that.

A related, astonishing phenomenon is the surprising number of self-avowed pro-lifers who come in for abortions themselves. In some cases, women who go in to a clinic for an abortion one day are back the next day to picket that same clinic. Many of them insist that they are "different" from the other women in the waiting room with them, that their case is somehow special and justifies an exception.

One morning, a woman who had been a regular "sidewalk counselor" went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. "I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!" she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to "murder their babies."

And a similar story from Dan Barker's Losing Faith in Faith, in which Barker relates a conversation with a Catholic attorney:

"Well, I was raised to respect the sanctity of life," he said, "and I will always vote with my church."

...He looked at me for a moment, and in hushed tones said, "But you know what? I don't know what I would do if my fourteen-year-old-daughter got pregnant."

"You would get her a quick, quiet abortion and worry about the morality later," I offered. With a guilty grin, he nodded his head in agreement. "You have the money and you have the contacts," I continued, "but if you keep voting wrong you may not have the option." He didn't know what to say, the big hypocrite.

These bizarre-seeming actions, I believe, fall cleanly into place when one understands the mission of the anti-choice movement through the correct lens. Any large political movement will have a diversity of opinion among its members, and I have no doubt that some people oppose abortion because they genuinely (though mistakenly, in my view) believe that a human life exists from the moment of conception. But among the politically organized wing of the religious anti-choice movement, I believe there is one primary, overriding motive - and it is not concern for the fetus' life, but desire to control and oversee the woman's.

Subjugating women's bodies to the state has always been part and parcel of every theocratic movement. It's an outgrowth of the misogynistic belief common to nearly every major world religion that women are inferior to men and must be controlled by them. This spirit of bigotry is why the Catholic church does not permit women to be clergy and why the Southern Baptist Convention expects wives to pledge to obey their husbands. It's why Islamic mullahs forbid the education of women and allow men to marry multiple wives, but never wives to marry multiple husbands. It's why Orthodox Jews pray to God every day to express their gratitude for not being born female, and why Mormon women are taught that they can only reach Heaven if they're married so that their husbands can pull them through.

Naturally, the members of this movement tend to grant exemptions to the principle of female inferiority on a case-by-case basis - for themselves and for their loved ones, as necessary - which explains why they don't oppose abortion for themselves or for their daughters. It's only those other women, those untrustworthy outsiders, who need to be controlled for their own good. In these people's minds, enforced pregnancy is an appropriate punishment for women who choose to have sex in unapproved ways. This neatly explains opposition to contraception and abortion alike: in their minds, both these are things are ways for sinful women to avoid the natural and deserved consequences of immoral sex.

May 15, 2008, 8:25 am • Posted in: The RotundaCommentOptions

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146 Comments

"You have the money and you have the contacts," I continued, "but if you keep voting wrong you may not have the option." He didn't know what to say, the big hypocrite.

Barker is right, but is still missing a big point. People have always had abortions and even if they are outlawed, people will still have abortions. If this guy has money and cares as much about the way people will view him as is implied by the story, it's a good bet that he would still get his 14 year old daughter an abortion. The difference is that today this choice makes him a hypocrite, but if abortion is outlawed, it could make him a hypocrite with a dead daughter.

I want to see the lives of people improved just as the anti-choice ("pro-life") camp does, but I've yet to see any of them show any concern for the lives of women. Until they are willing to deal with reality, they'll just have a blind dogma and not a realistic or rational alternative.

You have put your finger absolutely on the button with this post! You are completely correct, the abortion "debate" is indeed merely a veiled excuse for the continued oppression of women by religious faiths birthed in the patriachal cultures of antiquity. As long as we continue to hold true to tenets of faith appropriate to a Bronze Age Palestinean tribe, we will always struggle to accept women as equals. Never has the Exterminator's term "anti-forced-maternity" been so apt.

"The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to "murder their babies.""

Babies.
People react emotionally to this word. Pro-lifers deliberately and maliciously manipulate this to culture a false notion that abortion = murdering babies. They make out embryos to be babies, despite jarring differences. A check on many pro-life websites will reveal pictures of radiant, glowing babies basking in white purity placed prominently to invoke a protective feelings among viewers.

Sadly, many people respond better to these emotional propaganda than the logical and rational arguments by pro-choicers. Many myopic people swallow the trap hook, line and sinkler. They are unable to see below the surface. To them, abortion is simple. It's just plain murder of "babies".

Pro-lifers opposing abortion on religious grounds have no right to impose their beliefs on others. It's their personal choice whether they want abortion for themselves or not, and they can reject abortion if they think it immoral. But to campaign to ban abortion for EVERYONE and claiming the moral high ground based on their faith? ----that's plain self-centred, arrogant and myopic.

It's infuriating how pro-lifers manipulate people.

Exactly right. And this is why I feel that feminism and atheism go so well together.

Long-time reader, first-time commenter (I think).

I just wanted to say that this post is spot-on. Opposition to abortion is part and parcel with the opposition to the HPV vaccine in Texas. Namely, religious folks see these things as punishment for sex. It's not that they're pro-life. They're anti-woman, certainly, and even more generally, they're anti-sex. They see it as a sinful, dirty act. Like the mother in Carrie.

On topic, McCain wants to change the abortion platform to include exceptions for rape victims, incest, and the mother's health, and the religious right is outraged.

Obviously they are, they want to punish women for being women. There's a great comment there that does a good job explaining my thoughts on the issue:

I think the morally inconsistent position that "abortion is murder" and "it's OK for cases of rape and incest" can be easily explained by the second leg of the anti-abortion argument: She spread her legs, so she deserves to have a baby. I think a lot of anti-abortion people actually believe that a fetus doesn't have full personhood. Take away the "she knew what she was getting into" aspect of the situation, and these people are uncomfortable imposing a pregnancy on the woman for the sake of preserving a life that is less-than a full-fledged person.

Of course, she didn't know what she was getting into, because some irrational folks didn't want comprehensive sex-ed.

Right on target, Ebon. It is the supposed immorality of sexual behavior, guilt over their own sexual feelings, and the need to subjugate women that has the pro-lifers so bent out of shape over abortion.

I think it goes a little deeper than just controlling women, in that I think that many of those pro-lifers feel that they need to control women because women are incapable of making their own decisions. Hence, the reluctance to punish women who have abortions and the desire to go after the doctors instead.

Excellent point, Ebon, as usual. I usually agree with you, except when you go on about "free will." Not because I don't agree, but mostly because it goes far above my head.

Back On Topic:
You're right, but it doesn't matter. The link to the tales of pro-life women getting abortions won't be believed by most pro-lifers. They'll say it was made up by pro-choice people to weaken the pro-life case.

But that's neither here nor there. What we are dealing with is people with a phenomenal ability to compartmentalize their morality and ability to reason. Until we come up with a way to shock that atrophied part of their brains back to life, we'll live with generation after generation of delusional people.

I think it goes a little deeper than just controlling women, in that I think that many of those pro-lifers feel that they need to control women because women are incapable of making their own decisions. Hence, the reluctance to punish women who have abortions and the desire to go after the doctors instead.

My mother is a born-again Christian and a Pro-Lifer through and through. In my experiences with her and her pro-life friends, they believe that it is better to die for the good of the fetus, or have both the woman and the fetus die than to have an abortion. And it's not really about "controlling women".

It's more like they believe that God has this ranking system of sins, and abortion is at the top of the list. If every human is one of God's perfect creations, then you are in essence, rejecting the work of God. Also, just as they glorify the martyrdom of Jesus, they believe that dying for a fetus is acting in a Jesus-like manner, which will bring rewards in Heaven.

Controlling women really isn't a part of it, rather, they feel that a woman should want to willingly die for the life of their fetus, without any hesitation.

I'm not anti-abortion, but I am pro-life.

Whether you believe that a fetus is a human life or not, or whether you believe it becomes conscious at 3, 6 or 9 months, it really doesn't matter. That little clump of cells will become a human if allowed to. We all were that clump of cells at one time and we were given the opportunity to enjoy life.

The aborted fetus will not have that chance to enjoy life as we do. We're robbing that clump of cells of ever even having a shot at being human. And to me, this is what is wrong with abortion.

I advocate a secular respect for human life, in addition, a secular respect for sex. There is no excuse for a person, well-educated and respectful of the consequences of sex, to get pregnant (or get someone pregnant). It's too easy to avoid this outcome. Therefore, I agree with Ebon that better sex-ed is a must for our teens.

Last, I think men must be held much more responsible and accountable in these situations. Even though the woman must carry the baby, it's just as much his as it is hers. And men in today's society are allowed to just walk, I could even argue that they're encouraged to.

Whether the woman wants to raise the child or not, it should at least have the opportunity to live, somewhere or somehow.

If you had to choose between being raised in an orphanage and never knowing your parents, or being aborted, which would you choose?

Let's get this straight: in the case of the woman who would want to die with their fetus than get an abortion, THE FETUS IS GOING TO DIE ANYWAY! Why the hell should I sacrifice my life for a thing that won't live? I'm getting that kid out of me as late as is safely possible, and if it can't survive on it's own, so be it - there was nothing further I could have done. If they have anyone to blame, it's god for not letting it remain within them safely. (But I don't ever blame god - that would imply god had any control over it to being with.)

The fact of the matter is that these people DO want to control women, because if the really cared about life rather than control, the would get off the sidewalks and into people's lives. They would be showing love and helping people with unexpected pregnancies. They would be giving women the money they need to get medical help, and (in the case of young mothers) they would be helping them continue their education and help them get support from their parents and other leaders in the community. But many don't. For those people, it IS about control, and sidewalk judgement.

hrd2imagin,

We're robbing that clump of cells of ever even having a shot at being human. And to me, this is what is wrong with abortion.

So what? Why do we owe anything to this clump of cells?

Why don't we owe more to the living to control their lives than to clumps of cells, whether they have a shot at being human or not?

Whether the woman wants to raise the child or not, it should at least have the opportunity to live, somewhere or somehow.

If you had to choose between being raised in an orphanage and never knowing your parents, or being aborted, which would you choose?

I think this is a red herring.

When a woman gets an abortion, there are reasons. In many cases, it's a bad time and if it's a bad time for the mother it will be a very bad time for the child. Instead, an abortion allows women to have children when they are ready and able to care for their child. A child is still being born, just at a different time.

There's nothing sacred or magical about us. Yes, we're glad to be alive, but our life means that many potential children who would have been conceived after us were never born. Should we feel guilty? When my mother became pregnant, any attempt that my parents might have made to conceive were blocked - is this a tragedy? No more so than when a woman choses to have an abortion so that she can time it better.

I think everyone here is rational enough to state that being "pro-life" and anti-birth control/protection is contradictory. When taken together, I think a strong case can be made for ulterior motives. I think arguments from those who are pro-life and pro-protection have an entirely different position and motive.

When ever I hear potentiality arguments...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

Adrian: So what? Why do we owe anything to this clump of cells? Why don't we owe more to the living to control their lives than to clumps of cells, whether they have a shot at being human or not?

It's not that we owe them anything. There is no afterlife, we know this. So there is only one life to be had. And to take that opportunity for life away from something defenseless is what is wrong about abortion.

There's nothing sacred or magical about us. Yes, we're glad to be alive, but our life means that many potential children who would have been conceived after us were never born. Should we feel guilty? When my mother became pregnant, any attempt that my parents might have made to conceive were blocked - is this a tragedy? No more so than when a woman choses to have an abortion so that she can time it better.

This is a straw man. A prerequisite for human life is that a sperm and an egg come together. In cases where no conception takes place, there is no potential for a human life, thus nothing to worry or feel guilty about. There is nothing wrong with recreational sex. But if an unplanned pregnancy occurs, I think it's cowardly for either the man or the woman to dodge responsibility for their actions.

To me, it's a matter of responsibility and accountability. If we allow teens to think that there's nothing wrong with abortion, then the chances of them taking safe sex seriously are slim to none.

In my experiences with her and her pro-life friends, they believe that it is better to die for the good of the fetus, or have both the woman and the fetus die than to have an abortion. And it's not really about "controlling women".</blockquote
Actually, it is. And, it's sad that some women submit to the oppression.

"It's why Orthodox Jews pray to God every day to express their gratitude for not being born female"

I express my gratitude daily for not being born female. The thought of sqeezing out something with a head the size of a canteloupe scares the crap out of me. Women are tough.

hrd2imagin wrote "If you had to choose between being raised in an orphanage and never knowing your parents, or being aborted, which would you choose?"

Well, hrd2imgain, let's rephrase your question. "If you had to choose between being abused and killed by parents who didn't want you or foster parents or the trustees at an orphanage, or being aborted, which would you choose?"

You have attempted to set up a strawman argument by saying that the "feelings" of a "clump" of cells is worth more than those of an actual human. If you think that "life" is so precious, then why aren't you promoting the incarceration of pregnant women so they couldn't possibly harm the baby? Hmmm? As for your claim that teaching kids about abortion as an option will make them promiscious or not using "safe sex" as you put it, really? Any evidence of this? At all?

Oops. In my post above, I didn't close out the blockquote correctly. The third line is my response.

"If you had to choose between being abused and killed by parents who didn't want you or foster parents or the trustees at an orphanage, or being aborted, which would you choose?"

Well the end result is still the same. So I'd pick the first to at least experience something. But considering the rarity of such events, I'd say your question is silly.

You have attempted to set up a strawman argument by saying that the "feelings" of a "clump" of cells is worth more than those of an actual human. If you think that "life" is so precious, then why aren't you promoting the incarceration of pregnant women so they couldn't possibly harm the baby?

That's not what I said. I'm not saying that a woman shouldn't be able to have an abortion if she wants one. I'd just like to see the "abortion as birth control" mentality changed or diminished. No we're not precious, but we're not trivial either. When conception occurs, a life starts to grow. Abortion robs that fetus of any chance of enjoying a life, whether that life ends up being good or bad.

Through teaching and practicing safe sex, we can reduce the number of birth control abortions. My only "dream scenario" is that women who do get pregnant may think to themselves, "I may not want to raise a child now, but this child probably would appreciate having a chance to live its life, somewhere, somehow."

I don't see what's so controversial or fundamentalist about my proposition. I'm not trying to change laws, just the way we view or consider the life of a fetus.

Hmmm? As for your claim that teaching kids about abortion as an option will make them promiscious or not using "safe sex" as you put it, really? Any evidence of this? At all?

I'm not suggesting that we don't teach them about abortion. But I also don't think it's wise to promote it as being on par with wearing a condom or being on birth control pills. And no, I really don't have any evidence for my claim. I just think that if we as a society can place a higher value on the life of a fetus, people may think twice before being careless with sex, or males will take more responsibility when a woman becomes pregnant.

What's so repulsive about this?

Actually, it is. And, it's sad that some women submit to the oppression.

I won't argue that it's not about controlling women in some (or many) cases. I'm just speaking from experience with my family. For my mother, controlling women isn't the goal, but an unfortunate side-effect in the avoidance of sin. That's the mentality.

I could see how it'd be easy for an outside observer to conclude otherwise. The result is the same, but that's why it's easy for them to deny "controlling women" as a motive.

Thank you for this post, Ebon. You are spot on that the anti-choice movement is really anti-woman and anti-sex, nothing more. I worked in an abortion clinic for many years, and I remember the anti-choice women who were convinced that their situation was "special" or "different." Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing.

I also think it's worth mentioning that people frame this as a "religious" issue, and yet there is no scriptural basis for claiming that abortion is murder (not that I accept the bible's authority, but hear me out). In fact, there is good reason to claim the opposite. According to the OT, the penalty for murder is death. However, if you injure a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarry, you have to pay a fine. Church authorities did not even mention abortion until about the 19th century. Sounds to me like the spiritual practice known as Making Up This Shit As You Go Along.

hrd2imagin, I do have one question for you. It seems, by your logic, that abortion ought to be allowed at least in cases of contraceptive failure. No method is 100% effective, after all. So how would you propose writing the law? How exactly is someone supposed to prove that?

As soon as people start talking about legal restrictions on abortion, I picture a woman standing before a judge, having to explain her sex life in court. There are as many reasons to have an abortion as there are women who have them, and no law can foresee ever situation. Given the option of the government getting to decide, versus the woman herself, I know which I would choose, thanks very much.

Abortion robs that fetus of any chance of enjoying a life, whether that life ends up being good or bad.

So what? Billions of things rob potential humans of the chance of life, yet no one freaks out about contraception, masturbation, or even the rhythm method. After all, being in a relationship and not conceiving children will rob these potential children of their chance of enjoying a life. Big deal. You need to do better than this.

Through teaching and practicing safe sex, we can reduce the number of birth control abortions. My only "dream scenario" is that women who do get pregnant may think to themselves, "I may not want to raise a child now, but this child probably would appreciate having a chance to live its life, somewhere, somehow."

What about women who say "I want to raise a child, but not right now." Hundreds of millions of women do this all the time, and abortion is just one of many methods of selecting the timing of a birth.

And no, I really don't have any evidence for my claim. I just think that if we as a society can place a higher value on the life of a fetus, people may think twice before being careless with sex, or males will take more responsibility when a woman becomes pregnant.

You're absolutely right you don't have evidence. When you look at other societies today and in the past, you'll see that whether or not abortions are legal and safe, women will still have them. Instead of getting an abortion in a safe, sterile environment where they have access to doctors and therapists as well as all the necessary information about the procedure, they will get them in alleys or closets and frequently pay for this with their life.

The net result is not a reduction in abortions, but a significant increase in the number of women who die or become infertile due to botched abortions. You say you support life, then support the life of the mother.

Frankly, if you're going to try to put up an argument that says women should be compelled to act as a breeding chamber for a child they don't want and which could impair their career, their health or even their life, then you better come up with a better argument than "in my head, I imagine this might lead some people to value life." You better find some way to account for the shocking waste of lives which result when women have babies they don't want.

But, hrd2imagin, isn't a major object of religion to be controlling--both of men and women?

hrd2imagin

I'm not saying that a woman shouldn't be able to have an abortion if she wants one. I'd just like to see the "abortion as birth control" mentality changed or diminished.

I doubt abortion is regularly seen as a form of birth control outside of the strawman fantasies of pro-lifers. Most women I've met (or had relationships with) who have had abortions for one reason or another found the decision difficult and live with consequential guilt that colours the rest of their lives. Regardless of whether a foetus is concsious, viable or has a soul, the knowledge that a potential life has been created is a significant event in any woman's life; and from experience most men's too. To be honest I feel your comments have a "concern troll" aspect about them which suggests that your agenda is less than transparent.
My seventeen year old daughter is due a baby next month. She left a good school and has compromised good prospects because she felt that she had an obligation to raise the child she and her partner created. I respect her and their decision, but would have been equally supportive of a decision to terminate the pregnancy if they had felt it prudent. From my point of view the ability to choose, legally, pragmatically and according to circumstance is all that a mature society requires in this matter. Details of timing etc should be informed by the science.

I won't argue that it's not about controlling women in some (or many) cases. I'm just speaking from experience with my family. For my mother, controlling women isn't the goal, but an unfortunate side-effect in the avoidance of sin. That's the mentality.

And, like I said, it's sad that women like her submit to the this control. The "avoidance of sin" in this case is just another euphemism for control of women.

Well the end result is still the same. So I'd pick the first to at least experience something. But considering the rarity of such events, I'd say your question is silly.

I would say that your original question was pretty silly considering that a clump of cells doesn't have the cognitive faculties to understand that it is alive or that it could become a human.

I'd just like to see the "abortion as birth control" mentality changed or diminished.

Please tell me you aren't resorting to the mythological woman who decides that she can do what she wants because she'll just go get an abortion if she becomes pregnant argument.

I don't see what's so controversial or fundamentalist about my proposition. I'm not trying to change laws, just the way we view or consider the life of a fetus.

It's controversial because your position basically amounts to shaming women into having unwanted children and punishing them for mistakes or failures in contraception.

But I also don't think it's wise to promote it as being on par with wearing a condom or being on birth control pills. And no, I really don't have any evidence for my claim.

Another myth. You're right, you don't have evidence for this, because this only lives in the minds of anti-choicers.

hrd2imagin:

"Using abortion as birth control." Oh please. What the frack does that even mean? As far as I'm concerned, it IS birth control. It is a form of family planning. It is a fundamental reproductive right.

I strongly suspect that what people really mean when they say this, is that the woman is being cavalier about her decision. Well, I counseled women about their decisions for seven years, and I never once encountered a woman who thought it was no big deal. Women are moral agents, and they have brains and consciences, and are acutely aware of what being pregnant means.

Women can be very sure that having the abortion is the right thing for them to do, and they can be glad that they have the freedom to choose it, but it's always a difficult and sad thing to go through. They do not need you or anyone else telling them how they should feel about it. Sheesh.

Bravo, Ebon.

And Nurse Ingrid, too.

* Standing ovation for Nurse Ingrid *

Seems a shame for my first comment here to be so unhelpful in furthering the discussion, however her comment was so relevant and important, IMHO, I simply could not resist. Thank you, Nurse, thank you.

Controlling women really isn't a part of it, rather, they feel that a woman should want to willingly die for the life of their fetus, without any hesitation.

And given that many women do not want to willingly die for the life of their fetus, your mother and her political allies, by seeking to outlaw abortion, are indicating their willingness to force others to unwillingly die. How is this not "a desire to control women?"

I'm not anti-abortion, but I am pro-life.

...meaning what?

I'd just like to see the "abortion as birth control" mentality changed or diminished.

Considering that this mentality exists only in the imaginations of anti-choicers...

I'm not suggesting that we don't teach them about abortion. But I also don't think it's wise to promote it as being on par with wearing a condom or being on birth control pills. And no, I really don't have any evidence for my claim. I just think that if we as a society can place a higher value on the life of a fetus, people may think twice before being careless with sex, or males will take more responsibility when a woman becomes pregnant.

What's so repulsive about this?

The fact that it's difficult to believe that someone could be so thoroughly disconnected from reality as you seem to be. Can you point to a single instance, anywhere, of any pro-choice party promoting abortion as trivial, or as being on a par with condoms and the pill?

The mindset you describe is completely fictitious. It has been made up out of whole cloth by anti-choice propagandists, a fact that can be easily documented, which Ebon has explicated multiple times, and I suspect other commenters have as well (I'm not through the comments yet), to the extent that what you're saying about is logically equivalent to "I'm not anti-semitic, but I wish that the Jews would stop trying to take over the world."

More later.

Some of these comments are getting too personal. Chill out, please.

hrd2imagin, I understand your position, but I think there's a crucial flaw in its reasoning, which is this:

If you had to choose between being raised in an orphanage and never knowing your parents, or being aborted, which would you choose?

You write as if "being raised in an orphanage" and "being aborted" are two separate options for me. I don't think that's the case at all. If my parents had had an abortion, I'd never have come into existence at all, and there never would have been a "me". For this choice even to arise presupposes the existence of a person who can prefer one option to another, and by the time that circumstance exists, abortion is no longer a possibility.

You ask us to imagine the relative value, to ourselves, of existence versus nonexistence. But that can't be done. Again, the very concept of value to a person presupposes the existence of that person. If I don't exist, nothing can be of any value to me, either positive or negative, and so the question as posed is not a meaningful one.

As you know, I am a Christian. Predictably, much of the pro-choice rationale presented here and in response to last month's post fails in my estimation, though there were a couple of interesting comments I had not previously considered. Likewise, anything I would offer by way of argumentation from my perspective would likely fail in your estimation.

So what are we to make of this? I believe much of the difficulty surroundng this issue surfaces in an area familiar to many atheists, but to which most modern Christians are blind to. It is my sincere contention that most atheists would not harbor resentment toward Christians and the Church if the Church would remove itself from politics, from organizing rallies, and from public protesting.

This, in my opinion, is the source of the vitriol, and the cause of the bitterness on both sides. And make no mistake, it is plainly the Christian's fault. By abandoning the Church's true mission, Christians have duely incurred the wrath of the world.

This wrath is a natural and logical consequence of the Church's sin of entering politics. As such, the Christian cannot claim persecution from the world where the issue of abortion is concerned. To wit, persecution of Christians only occurs where the Christian is in the right. In this case, we are clearly in the wrong when we seek to regulate the world, in this instance abortion, through legislation and Supreme Court justices.

Sorry for the sermonic introduction, but I am passionate about this issue. The Church should disassociate itself from politics completely, both on the left and on the right. Actually, disasscoiate is not a strong enough verb. Cease and fully desist, perhaps? I predict if this were to happen, the hate so common on both sides would disippate rapidly. Am I off base here? I cannot help but believe that a pro-choice advocate would not begrudge me for being a pro-lifer if they were being entertained in my house. It is only when I barge in their house and tell them what is right and wrong that they become irritated, and rightly so...

If this is correct, we then have a great common ground, the separation of Church and State, from which to press forward.

Indeed, Nurse Ingrid rocks!

MS,
I agree with what you are saying, that the church should get out of politics and we should have separation of church and state, but I don't think it's just the church. Normal Xians have trouble separating themselves from their beliefs. For instance, many Xians get very upset at the thought of anyone criticizing Xianity and take it as a personal insult (it's not just true for Xians BTW). These people are also part of the problem in that they will not separate their personal beliefs from politics.

For instance, many Xians get very upset at the thought of anyone criticizing Xianity and take it as a personal insult (it's not just true for Xians BTW).

Sad but true, my friend. You may not know the full extent of how right you are on this. It even occurs in intra-christian debates.

These people are also part of the problem in that they will not separate their personal beliefs from politics.

I have no problem expanding my complaint in the manner you have indicated. It's just another form of Christians entering politics. All forms are destructive, always have been. A brief overview of history is enough on its own to demonstrate this...

I cannot help but believe that a pro-choice advocate would not begrudge me for being a pro-lifer if they were being entertained in my house. It is only when I barge in their house and tell them what is right and wrong that they become irritated, and rightly so...

I may be misinterpreting this, but you seem to be saying that you would not accept abortion as the right decision for yourself, but you don't feel that your personal opinion should be forced on others. This may offend you, but I would actually consider that pro-choice. I have no problem with someone who would simply not consider abortion as an option during an unplanned pregnancy. In fact, that's what we're fighting for - abortion as an option, to be taken or not, at your discretion. Pro-life, as I define it, means that you personally feel uncomfortable with abortion, for whatever reason, and you feel that you have the right to remove that option and force pregnancy on me, even if I do not wish it. State-coerced pregnancy is the problem, not any one person's opinion about abortion.

Standing ovulation for Nurse I!

[Sorry, couldn't resist that groaner.]

I'd just like to see the "abortion as birth control" mentality changed or diminished.

Please tell me you aren't resorting to the mythological woman who decides that she can do what she wants because she'll just go get an abortion if she becomes pregnant argument.

Does anyone have any idea of how much an abortion costs? Also the time, effort, and mental anguish that is a result of an unplanned pregnancy and the need to terminate it? Why, then, would someone who is in a weakened position in life want to spend all her resources on an unplanned pregnancy/abortion, when that very same person could have spent less on simply preventing it all it the first place? After all, a woman on the pill can "do what she wants" too. (This is only in response to the objection that a woman would purposely pre-choose her method of birth control to be an abortion.)

The fact of the matter is that this argument does not apply to mentally/emotionally rational persons. Someone who is actually unable to judge the results of her actions is either uneducated, and society has failed her; or she is in need of serious clinical help because she is unable to take care of herself. Or she has been denied access to birth control - and this DOES happen.

In all cases, this is not the time for our society to say "F you, you shouldn't have been born with a uterus if you wanted freedom over your own body". This is the time for us to stop wasting our collective resources on oppressive legislation, and start getting our hands dirty (and perhaps our reputations tarnished!) by being a personal non-judgemental angel to those less fortunate than us in their most vulnerable moments.

My take on it is this, for women or teenage girls who find themselves pregnant and are not prepared to carry the pregnancy to term or raise a child, abortion is the best of a limited choice of bad options.

And ultimately, what people who want to criminalize abortion are saying is that a pregnant woman's uterus is public property.

No offense taken, Cass. Your interpretation is close enough to suit me. At any rate, labels can't diminish the common ground we seem to have.

It seems like the people that are against abortion because it ends life/potential life always forget that there is a life- already existing- that needs to be considered-THE WOMANS LIFE!!!
Why isn't her life worth safeguarding? Why is a potential human more important than a real live one?????

You can think its cowardly if you want, but I don't see any reason that the only way to responsibly deal with an unplanned pregnancy is by having a baby- whether you keep it or not! Why isn't having an abortion responsible? I can think of MANY instances where it is THE MOST responsible thing a woman can do!

Does anyone ever think about how difficult it is to give a baby up for adoption- forget about carrying it for 9 months, and how that will affect your life and your family- babies ARE a lifelong thing. Its so easy to tell people to put a baby up for adoption, but the reality can be much more difficult.

I WAS ADOPTED- and hearing what my birth mom went through made me so sad, I realized that it is not a decision for everyone. I think adoption is a great option, but its not the only one, and often not the best one- if you consider long term consequences.

And as far as teens go, if they are told the truth about sexuality and all that goes with it, they will be responsible- they need correct info. Do you really think that fear or guilt stops a teen from doing anything? There is nothing wrong with having an abortion- and if a teen has to have one, making them feel like they are doing wrong will only hurt, not help.

STACEY

I am sure this will bother someone, but it needs to be said-

Not everyone having an abortion agonizes over the decision, it is not always a big part of a womans life, and most women are not bothered by it afterwards. No one wants to seem heartless, and in our society, taking care of YOUR needs first is often considered selfish. Many of us knew the moment we found out we were pregnant that we would get an abortion, and were relieved to have that option available.

I was very surprised by this. When I found out I was pregnant (the 1st time) I waited for the hurt, the worry, the sorrow to come- it didn't. I was adopted and thought that I would never have an abortion. But when I thought about having a baby, the future looked bleak and depressing. I didn't feel guilty going to the clinic to save myself.

When I woke up from the surgery, I felt like I was given a new lease on life. I cannot describe the feeling of relief that I had, it was like beating a fatal illness- I felt like I was once again in control of my destiny.

As far as using abortion as the sole form of birth control, I don't think this is commonplace. I am sure those people are out there, but really- if someone is so irresponsible they do nothing to prevent pregnancy while having lots of sex, do you really want them having a baby??? What woman wants to have surgery when they could just take a pill? In reality, most women have sex at 15-18, until menopause. There is a LOT of room for error, even for very responsible, careful people, let alone the rest of us.

However, it should not matter how the woman got pregnant- whether it was carelessness or rape- she has every right to control her reproductive organs. If you believe that abortion is neither immoral nor dangerous, say so- in ANY situation!!!

Stacey

I think this sums up this horrible attitude towards a womans body and punishment of her "sins". I found this on the pro-life action network, where theypost letters they get-

"...Abortion is not a women's right. She gave up the right to her body when she "opened her legs" and allowed a man's seed to enter her body. "

Niiiiice..............

Here's one more gem from that site- I think we should all be aware of the hate that these people promote in the name of "love"

"ALL THOSE WOMEN WHO GET ABORTIONS ONLY GET THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO STUPID TO USE PROTECTION OR ABSTAIN. IF THEY THOUGHT ABOUT KEEPING THEIR PANTS ON, MAYBE THIS WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED."

Another brilliant thought from a rabid anti-choice man.

-SJW

The hate that is inspired by religion, against women, is a scary throwback to the dark ages. I am only posting these here because as I read through this site full of hateful letters (referenced above in the article), I could not believe how many were directed at the "harlot" who "disobeys god", and how much they all sounded the same.
Sorry for not putting them all on one comment.

Here is one of my favorite ignorant comments:
" Because most women get pregnant to seize men, the fact is that women have abortions as an act of vengeance against the men that later "dump" them....."

One more brilliant rant, sounds like Falwell......
"1) she opened her legs and had sex (probably without protection).

2) she is looking for an "easy" way out because she can't be a mother.

3) she is so uneducated about sex and isn't prepared for the consequences.

4) she is just plain ignorant and stupid.

5) she shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

Women should not be given the right to have casual sex with multiple partners and then resort to such a terrible act in killing her child. There is "NO" excuse for a woman to have an abortion based on the grounds that she had sex and now wants an easy fix for her irresponsible actions. Keep your legs closed and find another activity that won't support the killing of babies. Women should be ashamed of themselves for displaying such nasty behaviors and helping other young women think it's ok to screw as many men as you want because you have a loophole called abortion. Remember the 12 commandments and the quote "thou shalt not kill". Apparently a lot of women don't care. One day you will stand before the creator and look at the child you killed."

And of course, there is the anti- womans rights- as a non-being has more rights than a woman in religious thinking.
"Women's rights should not be above those of an innocent baby, they chose to do what they did and having a child should not be a consequence or a punishment but should be dealt with in the best interest of the baby.....Every Mother Shirking Her Duty Is Another Child Murdered."

YIKES!!! I bet these guys go to church every weekend, even on weekdays. And I bet they hate birth control too. A womans duty is NOT to be a walking uterus.

But the winner is...
"If legalized abortion is the sign of a "civilized" society, then I'm in favor of the Stone Age. "
I bet this person wishes that we could still stone adulteresses and burn witches!

Of all of the letters I read, NONE of them chastised MEN for having pre/extra marital sex. It is ALWAYS the womans fault, even though it clearly takes 2 to get pregnant. The only comments about men were about how women make them victims when they choose to abort the man's baby. Its always the stupid woman- who is probably stupid about sex from growing up in the bible belt and being denied any actual facts about sex!!!!

OK, I am done ranting now.
SJW

I know I'm late to the party and I've only brought two beers, but anyway here it goes:

Some people have mentioned abortion as "birth control."

Technically, that's correct. The pill, condoms, abortion, etc. are all forms of birth control.

I think some are getting caught up on the idea of abortion as a contraceptive, which it is obviously not, as abortions can only happen post-conception.

So I just want to make sure everyone realizes that an abortion is birth control and is not a contraceptive.

I recently finished a book about the Mongols by anthropologist Jack Weatherford. There were many interesting contrasts drawn between Mongol society and the European and Middle Eastern societies further West. In a time when the Catholic inquisitions were just emerging and Islam had a spiritual and political stranglehold on Persia and Arabia, the Mongols granted total religious tolerance and outlawed the use of torture.

The most interesting tidbit, however, was a small passage regarding the Mongols' treatment of women. In steppe society, women were not relegated to positions of inferiority, and women even ruled as regents for ten years after Genghis Khan's death (1241-1251). The author mentions that this upset many of the groups located within their empire, particularly the monotheistic religions, as in such societies a man's honor was directly linked to his ability to control a woman's sexuality.

Given the comments espoused by many in the pro-life crowd, I'd say that this archaic attitude still persists today.

Barker's example of the Catholic attorney demonstrates the internal conflict that many religiously devout citizens face: they identify with the antiquated tenants of the religion, yet common sense and reason tell them otherwise. Since they fail to rectify the conflict, they start making concessions, such as proffering the idea that abortion focuses on "the sanctity of life" in order to justify their confusion.

In my opinion, the pro-life argument has nothing to do with the question of life and everything to do with making women into slaves.

Cheers to you, Ebon, for doing a wonderful job exposing the hypocrisy behind the motivation. The most telling part of the whole deal is that the same groups that oppose abortion also oppose contraception and sex education, and you were apt to point that out. If they cared so much about life, they wouldn't treat the process of birth in such a haphazard fashion.

Remember the 12 commandments and the quote "thou shalt not kill".

This guy Stacey quotes does the job of killing his credibility for himself - we don't even have to touch him!

Okay, I'm going to try to address as many comments as I can here... But one thing you should take note of is that I *am* on your side! I believe in a woman's right to abort.

Nurse Ingrid: I do have one question for you. It seems, by your logic, that abortion ought to be allowed at least in cases of contraceptive failure. No method is 100% effective, after all. So how would you propose writing the law? How exactly is someone supposed to prove that?

I am not proposing that we change any law. Abortion is and should be legal because no person has any right to tell another person what to do with their body. I am merely suggesting that we shift the discussion from whether it should be legal or not, to "It's legal, now how do we reduce the number of abortions in a healthy and productive manner?"

I am an atheist, I do not believe in an afterlife, I believe in my life, my family and my future. I, like every one of you, was conceived and began to grow. If I had been aborted, surely I would have never known it, and maybe with the exception of a few people, no one would've never noticed that I wasn't alive. The Earth would continue to spin as it always had.

But given that all of us in this discussion understand what a joy and privilege it is to have a life, to be able to live our lives freely, to be a child, to grow up, to start a family; why is it so easy for some of us to take away some other person's only chance at enjoying a life as we do?

Because they'll never know? Bah. That's poor reasoning in any judgement.

Nurse Ingrid: Women can be very sure that having the abortion is the right thing for them to do, and they can be glad that they have the freedom to choose it, but it's always a difficult and sad thing to go through. They do not need you or anyone else telling them how they should feel about it. Sheesh.

Of course it's a sad thing to go through, I've never said anything to the contrary. It's this very sadness that leads to my conclusion. Women understand that they're stripping a person, their own offspring, of their chance at life. It's got to be a terrible decision to make. Doesn't this sadness imply that they're decision wasn't correct?

Nurse Ingrid, this is an honest question I'm asking here. Is it your role to make the woman feel okay about her decision after the abortion? Or is it to counsel her on making the correct decision before choosing whether or not to have an abortion?

Nurse Ingrid: "Using abortion as birth control." Oh please. What the frack does that even mean? As far as I'm concerned, it IS birth control. It is a form of family planning. It is a fundamental reproductive right.

Steve Bowen: I doubt abortion is regularly seen as a form of birth control outside of the strawman fantasies of pro-lifers. Most women I've met (or had relationships with) who have had abortions for one reason or another found the decision difficult and live with consequential guilt that colours the rest of their lives.

It is my opinion that family planning should be done before the pregnancy. "Abortion as birth control", in the way I use it, means aborting for any reason that is selfish, any reason other than "This pregnancy might endanger my life". This includes "I'm too young," "I'm not ready," "I want a career," etc. These are things that should've been taken into consideration at the time of intercourse, not after. This is why I strongly support a reformation in sex education.

Again, isn't the sadness that these women feel a confirmation of my position?

Steve Bowen, I applaud your daughter's decision.

OMGF: I would say that your original question was pretty silly considering that a clump of cells doesn't have the cognitive faculties to understand that it is alive or that it could become a human.

But our developed cognitive faculties understand what the fetus can become, the potential it has, to give it the benefit of the doubt, and a chance to live.

Adrian: So what? Billions of things rob potential humans of the chance of life, yet no one freaks out about contraception, masturbation, or even the rhythm method.

If you even read my previous posts, you would know that this argument is fallacious. No conception takes place in these instances, so there's no life, and no human.

Alex Weaver: The fact that it's difficult to believe that someone could be so thoroughly disconnected from reality as you seem to be. Can you point to a single instance, anywhere, of any pro-choice party promoting abortion as trivial, or as being on a par with condoms and the pill?

Okay, you're correct in saying that pro-choice parties don't promote it as trivial. I didn't mean to imply that that was my assumption. I've been around this debate for a long time, up until the past year or so, I was a catholic and a typical pro-lifer. So I understand the rationale behind both sides.

What happens, I think, is that when the pro-life and pro-choice start debating, each side takes the most polarizing views to defend their position against each other. In doing so, the pro-choice side can tend to come off as uncaring about the life of the fetus, and pro-lifers come off as uncaring about the mother.

It's these most polarized views that become the sound-byte for the layperson and to the opposition. To the average person, this is your position.

I'm saying that we need to move past this tired debate, and on to a new one. Let's stop arguing with anti-choicers and start fine-tuning our position. (It's like arguing with a creationist) Abortion is legal, and the chances of that changing are slim. Let's start talking about how we can take the entire discussion on sex, from intercourse, to STDs, to contraception, to abortion and respect for human life, bundle it in a rational way, teach it to our children, and ensure that the future of this debate leaves silly arguments like pro-life vs. pro-choice in the past.

This is what it means to be pro-life and pro-abortion. Simply changing the mindset to first consider the future life of the fetus. And if the mother still wants an abortion, that option is still there.

I don't argue that there aren't women out there that haven't taken this position, I only argue that there could've been more.

You're forgetting the extra two Commandments God gave Moses:

11. Life beginneth at conception, when egg and seed doth meet.
12. Thou shalt not listen unto a rational argument.

@hrd2imagin,

I think what you're saying is pretty non-controversial even in a pro-choice forum. Maybe, you should have led-in with the part about presuming the law will remain the same, i.e. allowing women to make the choice.

I had a discussion with a pro-choicer who pushed the case for abortion as birth-control for herself, citing the fact that she never wants children. So, in at least one case, this wasn't a strawman or anti-choice "fantasy". I suggested preventive measures including tubal ligation or vasectomy for her partner, but she rejected those.

hrd2imagin, I really don't see how you are "on our side" when you say you agree that a woman has a right to abort a pregnancy. You bring up many many claims of how abortion does this, that and the other and have no evidence. This seems to be an attempt to use fear and to put it bluntly, lies, to prevent abortions. I don't see how someone who is pro-choice would do this.

I do wonder why you did not answer this part of my post "If you think that "life" is so precious, then why aren't you promoting the incarceration of pregnant women so they couldn't possibly harm the baby?" What about this is different than being against abortion or "pro-life" as you claim you are?

Yunshui: I bow before your great wisdom.

Kudos to Ebon. I want to add: I don't think the anti- abortion, anti- contraception, anti- sex- education stance is just about controlling women. I think it's also about hating and fearing sex, and wanting sex outside heterosexual marriage to be punished.

The exception that's usually made by people who want abortion to be illegal -- namely, pregnancies that resulted from rape or incest -- make this clear. If your argument against abortion is that a fetus is a human being, why should the circumstances of its conception affect that? You wouldn't kill a two- year- old, or for that matter a twenty- year- old, just because they were conceived by rape or incest. The rape and incest exceptions make it clear: With the exception of a few individuals, the anti- abortion movement is clearly not about protecting human life. It's about wanting women who have sex outside of marriage to be punished for it.

And how screwed up is that? How screwed up is it to think that children should be brought into the world so that women will always regret having had sex? How screwed up is it to think of children as punishment? Is that a child- loving, life- loving attitude?

hrd2imagin: "Potential people" is the zone where we disagree. What is a potential person, and does it have any rights? or any claim upon us?

I had a vasectomy after the birth of my fourth child. Without that step, we would undoubtedly have had several more children. But we didn't, so those potential people never came into being. Do I feel guilty for my denial of potential personhood? No. A non-existent entity, a potential entity, does not exert any moral imperative.

The case with abortion rests on deciding when "a person" begins. There are arguments for various stages, from conception (frankly ridiculous) to birth and indeed after. I've seen rational arguments that most (full-term) new-borns are not conscious in any sensibly defined way for about 2-4 weeks after birth. In some ways full personhood starts at around 20 years after birth - so perhaps we should consider acquiring personhood as a gradual process.

But before that beginning, wherever each of us marks it - no. There is no duty owed to the "potential person" that might be realized if we choose one path over another.

Hello,

I just want to try to bring one more side to this dodecahedral argument. My wife is pro-life and I am prochoice. It is one of the few areas of politics on which we disagree. She is otherwise a progressive liberal – and an atheist – but this is a very personal issue for her because she was nearly aborted. To her, suggesting that abortion is ever right in any circumstance (including rape or incest) except when the mother's life is threatened is tantamount to suggesting she should never have been born. I am practically the polar opposite, as I believe the choice for abortion carries no moral baggage and that any society must provide for sane population management – which to me means putting that power into the hands of individual women and families by means of safe, free abortions. As it has become something my wife and I just don't talk about (sort of like when I forget to clean out the litterbox or end up spending two hours arguing at the comic book shop when I was supposed to be home making dinner), I will try to argue her position here based on the last time this was discussed in our household.

Abortion is morally wrong for basically the same reasons murder is morally wrong – the artificial depredation of human life. While the kernel of the violation is the same, it is not identical to murder. It is incumbent upon a society to provide the woman and fetus/child with the support they need in order to deal with an unwanted pregnancy in a morally acceptable manner – this is what adoption is for. Included as corollary is the idea that all women need to be taught how to avoid pregnancy whenever possible through birth control and safe sex. (Now that we are married, she has made it very clear that this is OUR problem and not HER problem, and I am supposed to be getting a vasectomy.) The fetus, as a potential human, has rights but not the same rights as a true human.

In response to some of the objections already brought up in this conversation:

1) It is not necessarily inconsistent to punish one party in a crime but not another. There are currently very different penalties in the US for buying drugs versus selling them. As well, in the US we typically prosecute prostitutes but far less often Johns. It is the opposite in other parts of the world, where it is illegal to buy sex but not to sell it. In the same way, you could make it illegal to provide abortions but not to receive one.

2) At the moment, she does not vote her conscience on this issue for a few reasons. Among them, we do not have universal healthcare in this country, which makes pregnancy far more dangerous in the US than it really ought to be.

3) I don't think she would argue that anybody is being irresponsible or evil by providing abortions now, in the same way that not everybody who owned slaves was automatically evil back when that was common. Like slavery, she sees our permissiveness of, and the necessity for, abortion as a pervasive societal problem that we must all take some measure of responsibility for. Also like slavery, she believes (yes, in the face of all evidence) that it is something our society will eventually outgrow.

4) This didn't work on me, but she has managed to corner other prochoicers who believe that abortion does have moral baggage but ought to be permitted anyway by asking them if there was a hypothetical way to raise an unwanted fetus without the mother, would they still think abortion was acceptable? An interesting question to ask yourselves to clarify your own views on abortion. (My answer: yes.)

5) She sees the fact that women have to deal with this and not men as a biological accident, and if we someday find the means to impregnate men, she will still be anti abortion (and I will still be pro), but there are others (on both sides, I believe, but her point was to refute those who claim that a law against abortion is unfair to women) who will have to change their positions.

If you made it this far, thank you for reading what I believe is an interesting and not unique perspective on the issue. We are living proof that two people can disagree on this and get along, and although our conversations on this are heated they are always civil. I believe the conversation is dominated by too many nutcases on the prolife side whose only interest is punishing women for sex, obscuring some very reasonable ethical concerns about abortion. People like my wife are left with no where to align themselves at the moment (and too often end up as pawns to the powerful anti-woman lobby if they do not do due diligence), but this will continue to be a volatile subject even after the Atheist Revolution, which I am planning for October 19th 2009.

And now, into the hornet's nest.

hrd2imagin:

I do think that the question of "at what point does a fertilized egg become a human being?" is a difficult one, and one that's at the heart of the abortion question. You clearly think that the answer is "the moment of conception." But you haven't made a case for why that should be. You've just asserted it, over and over and over. You keep saying that the clump of cells is a person, or a potential person... but a sperm and an egg that are an inch apart is also a potential person. Is using a diaphragm immoral? If not, then what makes the moment of conception the magic moment?

I think a better line to draw is the point at which an embryo develops a human brain, and develops the possibility for consciousness. And I'm not just going to assert this. I can make a case for it.

Consciousness is what defines human beings. The special nature of our consciousness is what distinguishes us from other animals. And an eight- week- old embryo simply does not yet have that consciousness, or anything even approaching it. And there's a fair amount of science to back me up on this -- both on the specialness of the human brain and mind, and on the lack of it in early embryonic development. Embryologists have likened the stages in embryonic development to stages in evolution; an overly simplistic description, but one that will do for our purposes. An early- stage embryo is more like a fish than a person (or like a non- human mammal in somewhat later stages). Unless you're a vegetarian, your position that an early- stage embryo is a special form of life that deserves protection is not tenable.

What's more, there are some basic pragmatic issues that you're ignoring. One is that contraception sometimes fails. Another, probably more important one, is that sex education in our schools is currently in an abysmal state. Teenagers are being given false and harmful information... including false and harmful information about contraception that leads them to making ill-informed choices about it. And access to contraception isn't always readily available for teenagers. Finally, we have a culture that promotes the idea that preparing and planning for sex makes a girl a slut. As long as all of these things are true, nobody is in any position to make moral judgments about unintended pregnancy. (I don't think we would be in that position even if those things weren't true, but that's a different argument.)

(Side note: For some reason I couldn't get the HTML link about the abysmal state of sex education in the U.S. to work, So here's that URL: http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=734 .)

As to this:

Of course it's a sad thing to go through, I've never said anything to the contrary. It's this very sadness that leads to my conclusion. Women understand that they're stripping a person, their own offspring, of their chance at life. It's got to be a terrible decision to make. Doesn't this sadness imply that they're decision wasn't correct?

I'm sorry, but that's a terrible argument. When I had my elderly and dying cat euthanized, so I could give her a quick peaceful death instead of a slow agonizing one, it was an unbelievably sad choice. It was one of the worst days of my life. I'm crying again now just thinking about it. And yet I have absolutely no doubt that it was the morally right decision. Feeling deeply and wrenchingly sad about a choice doesn't imply that it's the wrong choice. Plenty of good and right choices in life are hard and sad.

I am merely suggesting that we shift the discussion from whether it should be legal or not, to "It's legal, now how do we reduce the number of abortions in a healthy and productive manner"

No. You are not "merely" suggesting that. If that were all you were suggesting, there would be no debate. You are also suggesting that abortion, while it should be legal, is still morally wrong, and that many women who get them are being "selfish" (your own word) about a choice you think should hardly ever be made. And that is why I, along with many of the rest of us here, are up in arms.

We have some agreements on practical and legal issues. We agree that our society should be providing people with the means to prevent unwanted pregnancy, in order (among many, many other reasons) to minimize the need for abortions. But we are not on the same side. Your attitude towards women who have abortions is patronizing, moralizing, judgmental, and completely lacking in understanding. You are not on my side.

Velkyn: I do wonder why you did not answer this part of my post "If you think that "life" is so precious, then why aren't you promoting the incarceration of pregnant women so they couldn't possibly harm the baby?" What about this is different than being against abortion or "pro-life" as you claim you are?

Please read all that I've already written, I am not anti-abortion. Quite the contrary. All I'm saying is that we as humans should be taking more measures to reduce the number of abortions. This means reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies through teaching better sex education and respect for the life that could be created if contraceptives are not used.

Jon: "Potential people" is the zone where we disagree. What is a potential person, and does it have any rights? or any claim upon us?

A potential person is an embryo, a fetus, egg fertilized by a sperm. That's a potential human. Nothing else. I've said it twice already in this thread, so please read this people!! If there is no conception, then there is no human to protect or respect. Therefore there is no reason to feel guilty about using contraceptives or having a vasectomy. There is no potential for a human when people successfully use contraceptive measures. Why do I have to spell this out for people?! Three times!?

Polly: I had a discussion with a pro-choicer who pushed the case for abortion as birth-control for herself, citing the fact that she never wants children. So, in at least one case, this wasn't a strawman or anti-choice "fantasy". I suggested preventive measures including tubal ligation or vasectomy for her partner, but she rejected those.

Thank you Polly. People's perceptions of this topic are all over the map. I'm just trying to find a common ground that is agreeable to every rational person. And I believe that starts with sex-ed.

Rob: I believe the conversation is dominated by too many nutcases on the prolife side whose only interest is punishing women for sex, obscuring some very reasonable ethical concerns about abortion.

This is why I think we shouldn't concern ourselves with debating the legality of abortion anymore. Why debate with the kooks and give their position equal footing with ours? It's legal, and I can't see that changing.

However, we need to respect that conception creates a human life. You can argue all day about when it really becomes a life, or when it becomes sentient. But you can't deny that abortion ends a life that would've grown into a conscious adult had it been given the chance. In addition, odds are pretty good that the conscious adult would be thankful that they weren't aborted.

When viewed this way, abortion does sound a lot like murder, but it clearly is not because first we cannot prove abortion is murder because we cannot prove it is actually a life, and second we cannot treat these women as murderers and call ourselves a civilized society. So to me, the answer is to place as much value in the life of the fetus as the mother puts on her own. Then see how many women still choose to abort.

As Jon stated, women who choose not to abort need to be given all the help she needs to raise the child or to find someone who can. For those who do abort, we cannot lay judgment upon them because they made the choice that they felt was best for them.

Again, let's just start changing the framework of the discussion.

Nurse Ingrid, this is an honest question I'm asking here. Is it your role to make the woman feel okay about her decision after the abortion? Or is it to counsel her on making the correct decision before choosing whether or not to have an abortion?

Neither, actually. My job was to find out -- before the procedure took place -- whether she was sure of her decision, whether she was aware of all her options, to make sure no one was coercing her into it (which sometimes meant sending the boyfriend or the mother out of the room), and to assess whether she was particularly distraught and might need some extra counseling afterward. There were times when I sent women away because they were not sure that an abortion was the right choice for them. It was certainly not my job to determine what was the "correct decision" for my clients. That was up to them.

No. You are not "merely" suggesting that. If that were all you were suggesting, there would be no debate. You are also suggesting that abortion, while it should be legal, is still morally wrong

@GC,
I’m interested in what you say about this.
What do you want hrd2imagin to do? Deny his/her own conscience because of your own personal definition of when life begins? Didn't we already see in the last post that that was by no means a settled question? Does this person HAVE TO stop feeling about fetuses whatever (s)he's feeling?

Is it OK if people don't feel the same way about abortion as you do, given the caveat that they don't try pushing it onto others via the law or unethical pressure?
So what if they're suggesting it's wrong...maybe it is.

I thought Pro-Choice meant each woman comes to their own conclusion, not coming to the conclusion that abortion is OK.

Oh, one more thing.

Abortion is legal, and the chances of that changing are slim.

I'm sorry, but you are flatly wrong about this. The legal right to abortion is very much under attack in this country, and the rights have already been whittled back considerably. Federal funding has been denied. Teenagers in many states can't get it without parental permission. Many states require waiting periods, which create an intolerable burden on poor women who have to travel long distances to get abortions. Women in the military can't get abortions at military medical facilities, which effectively denies women serving overseas the right to abortion. And these battles are continuing to be fought, and the right to abortion is being whittled back further and further, all around the country.

What's more, the battle over abortion has created a de facto lack of access to abortion in much of the country. As of 2000, 87% of all counties in the U.S. did not have abortion providers. Many states have fewer than five providers anywhere in the state. Thus, even though abortion is technically legal, the access to it in many states has been restricted to the point where it's become virtually inaccessible.

Are you really arguing that the legal battle has been won, and that pro-choice forces now need to focus our energies on "fine-tuning" our position? If so, then I respectfully suggest that you take a much, much closer look at the political reality in this country.

(Link to the stats on accessibility of abortion: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NNR/is_1_35/ai_97873953/pg_12 )

hrd2imagin:

To be clear, I disagree with you. I do not think it is obvious that abortion will remain legal, and I do not think it is our reponsibility to minimize it. I believe we need comprehensive sex ed. for many reasons, and preventing abortions is not high on the list. Like any medical procedure, abortion carries risk. However, it is not societies' place to attempt to "minimize" abortions, only to empower women to make informed decisions.

My wife would also disagree with you. She thinks abortion is morally wrong and ought to be illegal.

Also:

But you can't deny that abortion ends a life that would've grown into a conscious adult had it been given the chance. In addition, odds are pretty good that the conscious adult would be thankful that they weren't aborted.

But you can't deny that abortion ends a process that might've grown into a conscious adult had it been given the chance. In addition, odds are pretty good that the conscious adult would be thankful that they weren't aborted.

Fixed that for you.

Greta Christina: When I had my elderly and dying cat euthanized, so I could give her a quick peaceful death instead of a slow agonizing one, it was an unbelievably sad choice.

This is not a selfish decision. This decision was made to alleviate the pain of a dying cat. Yes it's sad, but not selfish.

Greta Christina: Teenagers are being given false and harmful information... including false and harmful information about contraception that leads them to making ill-informed choices about it. ... Finally, we have a culture that promotes the idea that preparing and planning for sex makes a girl a slut.

I completely agree. Reforming sex-education to correct these shortcomings would be Step 1 of my plan.

Greta Christina: Consciousness is what defines human beings.

I respectfully disagree. Our level of consciousness is simply an attribute that separates us from other species, it does not define us. I argue that being the offspring of two humans, and having human DNA is what defines a human. A human embryo cannot grow into something other than a human.

Greta Christina: You are also suggesting that abortion, while it should be legal, is still morally wrong

No I am not. I simply believe that more care should be taken to ensure that abortion isn't perceived as a trivial thing. As you said yourself, our teens are grossly ill-informed. It is my opinion that many teens don't understand the seriousness of the decision to abort until it is too late. I simply want to focus on educating teens and young adults to make better decisions prior to engaging in sex so they never have to make these decisions in the first place.

Rob: However, it is not societies' place to attempt to "minimize" abortions, only to empower women to make informed decisions.

I think making informed decisions prior to engaging in sexual activity will lead to minimizing the amount of abortions.

It is my opinion that many teens don't understand the seriousness of the decision to abort until it is too late. I simply want to focus on educating teens and young adults to make better decisions prior to engaging in sex so they never have to make these decisions in the first place.

I personally do not understand the "seriousness" of abortion. We can always make more fetuses. They are practically an inexhaustible resource, or we might as well treat them as one, in the sense that when we run out of them there won't be any humans left anyway. While I love my wife, it would be wrong of me to impose on a 19 year old mother to carry her baby to term and raise it for 18 years just because somebody like me might fall in love with it someday. "Odds are" that the next egg that travels down that fallopian tube that ends up getting fertilized, that gets carried to term and raised by loving parents, that would never have had that opportunity if her mother and father were already struggling to raise a child they didn't want and possibly don't love, will be just as happy to have the opportunity to exist as the fetus who was aborted might have.

Oh, one more thing:

Abortion is legal, and the chances of that changing are slim.

I'm sorry, hrd2imagin, but you're flatly mistaken about this. The legal battles over access to abortion in the U.S. are by no means over. Federal funding for abortion has been denied. Teenagers in many states need to get parental consent to get abortion. Many states require waiting periods between counseling and the procedure, which create an intolerable burden on poor women who have to travel long distances to get them. Women in the military can't get abortions at military medical facilities, which means that for many women serving overseas, abortion is effectively unavailable. This battle is continuing to be fought, and the legal right to abortion is being whittled further and further back, all across the country.

What's more, the battles over abortion have created a situation in which abortion is technically legal but actually unavailable. As of 2000, 87% of all counties in the U.S. did not have abortion providers, and many states have fewer than five providers in the entire state. (I'd provide a link on those stats, but my last version of this comment went kaflooey and I think it might have been the URL. Email me if you want to see it.)

Are you really suggesting that the legal battle is over with, and that the pro-choice movement should now put its efforts into "fine-tuning" its position? If so, I respectfully suggest that you take a much, much closer look at the political realities in this country.

And in response to Polly: If hrd2imagin believes abortion is immoral, then he/she shouldn't have one. But if you're going to argue your moral position on a public blog -- especially on such a hot-button topic -- you should expect other people to argue that your moral position is inconsistent and untenable. What's more, hrd2imagin isn't just arguing that he/she thinks abortion is immoral. He/she is arguing that individual women should modify their personal choices about abortion -- and that the pro-choice movement should modify its methods and positions -- in order to be in more in keeping with his/her own personal morality. And that I absolutely do not agree with.

"Odds are" that the next egg that travels down that fallopian tube that ends up getting fertilized, that gets carried to term and raised by loving parents, that would never have had that opportunity if her mother and father were already struggling to raise a child they didn't want and possibly don't love, will be just as happy to have the opportunity to exist as the fetus who was aborted might have.

Do I really have to explain this one more time? I've already done so 3 times! If you want to debate with me, at least read and understand my positions. K thx.

I think making informed decisions prior to engaging in sexual activity will lead to minimizing the amount of abortions.

You may be right, but you also describe abortion as "cowardly" and "wrong," and said that there is "no excuse." I think these are the positions that people, including myself, are taking umbrage with. I think teaching children that abortion is cowardly and wrong, and that they need an excuse for not wanting to raise a child places undue burden on them. We should teach them that abortion is the most risky and expensive form of birth control available and should therefore be used as a last resort, but any other moralizing you can keep to yourself.

GC, point taken. Perhaps I oversimplified the stability of abortion laws.

GC: He/she is arguing that individual women should modify their personal choices about abortion -- and that the pro-choice movement should modify its methods and positions -- in order to be in more in keeping with his/her own personal morality. And that I absolutely do not agree with.

I'm debating, and letting my opinions be heard. Perhaps some will be swayed, perhaps many will not. I'm not proposing top-down legislation of my personal philosophy. I'm just placing my views in a public forum, and seeing if people can learn from it, and seeing what I can learn from others. It's a pretty American thing to do. And GC, you are free to disagree.

Do I really have to explain this one more time? I've already done so 3 times! If you want to debate with me, at least read and understand my positions. K thx.

If you are referring to your explanation for why you find contraceptive acceptable but abortion not, I don't think this has anything to do with my statement here. I am explaining that every pregnancy prevents another pregnancy, and that the 2 weeks to 3 months you have invested in the potential child/potential death sentence that you do not want should not interfere with you investing 18 years of your life raising a child you love and cherish. It has nothing to do with contraceptives or preventing pregnancy. I am assuming here that you are referring to this statement:

If there is no conception, then there is no human to protect or respect. Therefore there is no reason to feel guilty about using contraceptives or having a vasectomy. There is no potential for a human when people successfully use contraceptive measures. Why do I have to spell this out for people?! Three times!?

Rob: You may be right, but you also describe abortion as "cowardly" and "wrong," and said that there is "no excuse." I think these are the positions that people, including myself, are taking umbrage with...

Perhaps "wrong" isn't a good word, but "cowardly", yes. I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility and accountability. In every other area of life, a person is held accountable for their actions, but sexual responsibility is the exception. That's what I object to. And this burden of accountability should be placed equally on the man and the woman. I find it particularly egregious how men are able to wash their hands of any responsibility, and in some ways encouraged to.

Despite the fact that I find that selfish abortions as cowardly acts, I'm proposing nothing to outlaw such abortions. It's still a personal choice, just one that I happen to find cowardly.

...but any other moralizing you can keep to yourself.

Wow censorship, really?!

Wow censorship, really?!

It's hardly censorship to suggest that you keep these views out of sex ed. classes. You seem to suggest that possessing these views is necessary to making informed decisions and that children should be taught to feel guilty for their abortions – i.e. the "weight" and "seriousness" of the decision. If you are trying to explain your personal objections to abortion – an endeavor I hope you know I sympathize with, which is why I shared my wife's story – then that is fine, but you have repeatedly suggest, despite your claims to the opposite, that some kind of policy change should be made to reflect your opinions. To whit: that prochoicers should change their public positions to reflect your opinions and that children should be taught it in school. The rest of us are arguing that your moralizing of abortion has no place in the policy debate, neither amongst the prochoice activists who want to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to resolve their own moral issues with abortion, nor amongst sex ed. activists who want the information to be based on evidence and remain morally neutral.

Rob,

The importance of sexual reproduction is hard wired into our brains, so much so that humans have evolved to reward sexual intercourse with some of the most pleasant physical feelings that can be experienced naturally. In the same manner, we've evolved to feel deep emotional sadness when children and offspring are lost. (This is the sadness described by Nurse Ingrid in so many of her patients.)

Love is not a mystical feeling given to us by a sky-god. It's a biological mechanism that helps ensure the survival of our offspring.

And abortion is acting in a manner that is completely counter to our evolved instincts. That is why women go through emotional distress after an abortion. Teens should be taught that the only way to avoid this emotional distress is to avoid unwanted pregnancy.

This is how you teach my viewpoint in schools.

I gotta go, I'm away for the weekends, so I probably won't be on the site again until Monday. Nice talking with you all.

@Greta Christina,

He/she is arguing that individual women should modify their personal choices about abortion -- and that the pro-choice movement should modify its methods and positions -- in order to be in more in keeping with his/her own personal morality.

Thanks for responding. I don't see them trying to impose anything on anyone anymore than anyone else expressing their opinion. And I think the clarification he/she provided bears this out.
Many can and have pointed out that drawing the line anywhere before birth for when it's morally acceptable to abort is untenable.

The only thing I see that might be authoritarian here is:

That is why women go through emotional distress after an abortion. Teens should be taught that the only way to avoid this emotional distress is to avoid unwanted pregnancy.

I don't have any data on negative psychological effects of abortion on women, if any. But IF there is something to that argument, the relevant statistics should also be presented in any sex-ed class as part of comprehensive information.

Again, nothing really too controversial about any of this, IMHO.

This is not a selfish decision. This decision was made to alleviate the pain of a dying cat. Yes it's sad, but not selfish.

Fine. Use another example, then. Divorce. Leaving your hometown. Severing, or stepping back from, a close friendship. Adult life is full of hard, sad, wrenching choices which are nevertheless morally acceptable. The fact that women often feel sad about having abortions is absolutely not evidence that they are really morally wrong.

Our level of consciousness is simply an attribute that separates us from other species, it does not define us. I argue that being the offspring of two humans, and having human DNA is what defines a human. A human embryo cannot grow into something other than a human.

Yes, you argue that. But again, all your argument consists of is restating this position again and again and again. I have neurology and embryology backing up my opinion. What do you have to back up yours?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and if you feel that humanity and personhood begins at conception, then by all means, don't have an abortion yourself. But if you don't have anything to back up that opinion other than just that it's how you feel, then I respectfully suggest that that's not a very good basis for going into public forums and trying to make women feel guilty and ashamed about their reproductive choices, simply because they don't share your opinion. And I very strongly suggest that it's not a very good basis for trying to reshape the entire pro-choice movement -- not to mention the education of our children.

You are also suggesting that abortion, while it should be legal, is still morally wrong.

No I am not.

I'm sorry, but you are. You've said, "this is what is wrong with abortion." You have referred to women who have abortions for reasons you don't approve of as "selfish," "cowardly," with "poor reasoning" and "no excuse." You can say all you want to that you're not passing moral judgment, but the language you have consistently used in this debate shows otherwise.

You keep harping on this one straw man -- the mythical hordes of women who have abortions as casually as they get their hair cut. And you seem to be suggesting that the pro-choice movement should shape our methods and policies, and that our educational system should shape its methods, to prevent this one straw man from ever happening. Given the political realities of the abortion battle in this country, do you really think that that's what our priorities should be? Do you really think that the pro-choice movement and the educational system should be focusing its energies on making women who have abortions feel really, really bad about it?

Something has been bugging me about this discussion, and it's just dawned on me what that something is.

The fact that women who have abortions often feel sad about it, is given as proof that abortion is morally wrong.

But the fact that some mythical women have abortions and DON'T feel sufficiently sad about it... is ALSO given as proof that abortion is morally wrong!

Talk about trying to have it both ways.

p.s. I would like to applaud Stacey JW for sharing her story, not an easy thing to do when people can be so judgmental. I neglected to mention in my earlier comment that for many women, the most overwhelming emotional reaction after an abortion is relief. Apparently hrd2imagin would have us conclude that their decision was therefore wrong...

No, wait, it must mean that it was therefore right!

Two brief comments:

1. The original post said "A related, astonishing phenomenon is the surprising number of self-avowed pro-lifers who come in for abortions themselves." This issue has largely been ignored in the many responses above. The original backs up the statement with two anecdotal stories; not strong evidence for those who value evidence. Maybe the issue being ignored follows from this. Is there any hard evidence that the asserted phenomenon is so?

2. The responses seem to me to indicate that everyone seems to think they have the truth. This leads to a circular argument, not in the classical sense but rather in the sense of "round-and-round we go," talking past and not convincing each other. Is it any clearer why abortion is so difficult an issue when emotion seems to be so prevalent?

"And abortion is acting in a manner that is completely counter to our evolved instincts. That is why women go through emotional distress after an abortion. Teens should be taught that the only way to avoid this emotional distress is to avoid unwanted pregnancy."

This is, of course, incorrect biologically, psychologically, and morally, and contrary to the personal anecdote shared earlier in this very conversation. And generally twisting science to indoctrinate students is, uh, the goal of the other side.

There are a couple of points of hrd2imagin's that I would like to pick up on. First of all, let me say I think abortion should be available on demand and covered by healthcare until the end of the second trimester. After that, the situation gets murkier and objections are much more reasonable, as the fetus rapidly develops the ability to survive outside the womb. Personally, I would support a legal abortion at this stage, but I am far more willing to make compromises.

I do not think the point at which "personhood" begins is one that anybody can claim is settled or supported scientifically. A fetus is pretty clearly a potential person and not a fish or a monkey. As hrd2imagin correctly points out, a fetus cannot become anything but a person (well, or a cancer or other life threatening condition), and a fish is never eligible for personhood. A human fetus is a unique class of organism and the law should recognize this. Introducing the problem of personhood clouds the issue, by bringing in unrelated issues such as the mentally retarded, coma patients, and those requesting euthanasia. These are completely different problems that only relate to abortion if you make the question about "personhood."

As far as the law is concerned, the only question is "Is a woman obligated to carry any fertilized egg to the last possible term allowed by nature?" I like phrasing it this way because it makes the question about the woman and her body. hrd2imagin's argument that women need to be responsible for their actions is correct. If a woman does choose to give birth – a choice she can only fairly make if safe abortions are available – then we feel comfortable forcing her to take responsibility for that decision. She must provide for the child or make arrangements for its survival, and we will correctly punish her for infanticide, abandonment, or neglect for the next 16 years of that child's life. So it is a proper question to ask as it relates to abortion, and framing the issue as I have makes it clear that it is a similar but not identical problem.

I do not think we can assess the moral quagmire of abortion by retreating to pat answers like "It's not a person." Well, no, it can't dance yet. Maybe it can't see or breathe, but our opponents are not so foolish that they will believe just because a fetus doesn't have a brain at six weeks doesn't mean it won't at six months. It is the other side that needs black and white, one-size-fits-all answers. We should be able to safely acknowledge that a fetus is special and a special class of person while simultaneously making the argument for the necessity of abortion.

Jim Coufal said:

This issue has largely been ignored in the many responses above. The original backs up the statement with two anecdotal stories; not strong evidence for those who value evidence.

Actually the original references two studies from the early and mid 80's on the subject. While it is true that anecdotes are not the best evidence there are other data points the suggest the overall point still holds true. The estimated abortion rate for fetuses diagnosed for downs syndrome is close to 90%. DS fetuses are indiscriminate, they develop randomly and will have parents from all walks of life. So clearly a large number of pro-lifers find it necessary to abort a DS fetus, despite the fact that many people with DS are capable of leading healthy, happy lives.

I don't really have a problem with that decision, except for the potential hypocrisy of the aborter. Many pro-lifers rail against abortion precisely because they see it as reducing life to an issue of convenience. Yet when faced with the inconvenience of a child with DS (I'm not trying to be rude, they are children with special needs after all, with many needing full or part time care into adulthood) they are more than willing to get an abortion. Essentially pro-lifers get abortions for the same reasons as everybody else, they just suffer under the delusion that they are exceptional.

Your second comment is a little easier to address. I believe that abortion is such an emotional issue because essentially it is a philosophical, scientific, and legal question revolving around the definition of personhood. How or why does a thing (an inanimate clump of cells) become a person requiring rights and certain degrees of legal protection within a fair and just society? I think the abortion debate relies so heavily upon emotion because most people lack the scientific or philosophical understanding to come to a reasoned conclusion.

For example: Pro-lifers assert that souls are present at conception, the presence of a soul grants personhood, therefore fetuses are human beings. The easiest method to refute this is to ask them to prove the existence of the soul. Yet because religious claims are often immune to criticism in public discourse, they will take offense at the question and just get angry that you called their bluff. They have no evidence for this claim, and cannot independently verify it.

If you remove the ridiculousness of souls from the equation then the personhood of the fetus becomes a question about consciousness or suffering. It is then easy to see why most reasoned debate (and for that matter legal conclusions) surrounding abortion revolve around the issues of consciousness and suffering.

Rob, I think your being a bit dishonest when you state that personhood has not been established scientificly. It has long been established the points at which a fetus develops the ability to feel pain, the brainwave patterns that indicate conscious thought, and when the fetus is capable of surviving outside of the mothers womb. If you use any of these criteria to establish your definition of personhood, then the answer is readily available. I wanted to respond to the rest of your post but upon rereading I can't quite figure out the point your trying to make.

Sorry for the long post - Random

This, in Reason magazine, has implications that will affect the discussion: http://www.reason.com/news/show/126434.html

Varmus continued, "One might even in fact imagine generating a cell that is totipotent [able to develop into a complete organism] in that manner." In other words, researchers may one day take human cells all the way back to the embryonic stage, at which point they could be implanted into a womb, where they could eventually develop into complete human beings. This is the direction in which iPS cell research is heading. So instead of switching off one gene to make sure that an entity is not worthy of their moral concern, pro-lifers may soon have to worry about the opposite, pushing an adult cell so far back in its developmental stage that switching on a single gene will turn it into an embryo.

I find this whole "potential person" argument just plain ridiculous if taken to its logical conclusion: if it's criminal to destroy a "potential person" that would make every destruction of reproductive tissue a mass "murder" - if society executes a serial killer it also "murders" any children that the serial killer may produce some day; if some one assaults another person and irreparably damages their reproductive organs they kill off all that person's potential offspring; if a man ejaculates in a place other than a woman's vagina the sperm will die without any chance to fertalize an egg - thus eliminating thousands of potential people; etc...

In short, this nonsense about a "potential person" is just plain laughable and any sane person will dismiss it as a poor camoflauge for the real agenda of the pro-life crowd: dictating sexual "morality" to those of us that don't have their narrow-minded mores and values.

It has long been established the points at which a fetus develops the ability to feel pain, the brainwave patterns that indicate conscious thought, and when the fetus is capable of surviving outside of the mothers womb. If you use any of these criteria to establish your definition of personhood, then the answer is readily available.

OK, so which of those actually establishes personhood, and should we then ban abortion after that point? If all three happened at exactly the same time you might have a point, but the point that a fetus is able to survive outside the womb gets earlier and earlier (I believe 24 weeks is now the record, although the baby will likely have severe retardation, as well as blindness and possibly lifelong paralysis), the point that a fetus can feel pain is debatable (prolifers say 8 weeks, some scientists say 28 weeks, many won't commit to anything more specific than "during the third trimester," and long before they can feel pain they are capable of producing the stress hormones that can trigger pain in the fully born), and consciousness is a condition that has not been completely pinned down even in adults (and also introduces the unrelated question of euthanasia of people in persistent vegetative states).

I think the question of whether a woman should be required to carry an embryo or fetus should not be dependent on these questions, particularly given our incomplete understanding of the fetal condition. Even if some generalizations could be established – if we assume we are someday able to establish that most fetuses are able to feel pain, have conscious thought, and survive outside the womb by, say, 30 weeks, and the legal definition of person is amended to include such fetuses, what happens if a woman wants to abort at 29 weeks? Does she have to have tests performed on the fetus to establish whether it has crossed these thresholds? What if it has crossed two but not the third? Consciousness, in particular, may describe a property that emerges gradually as a result of an elaborate process that starts when the brain stem first forms and isn't completed until the child retains its first longterm memory.

While the answers to your questions may be readily available (although I think you overstate the confidence scientists have in these measures), I don't think you will find a single scientist who will say that yes, scientifically speaking, before this point the fetus was a fetus but after this point it is a person. It's simply not a scientific question.

Hi there,
I refer to the original post of Ebon, which drew attention to the coexistence of anti-abortion views with opposition to contraception among prominent pro-life groups. This should not be surprising, because the goal of religious/conservative groups is usually not simply to prevent abortion to the greatest extent possible, but also to do this in a way which is morally acceptable - which they do not say of contraception.
However, even considering the issue solely in relation to abortion, they might say that abortion is the fruit of the contraceptive mentality itself. For the unifying discourse of contraception and abortion is that of the freedom and rights of women. But this freedom is not a freedom which respects the truth of woman as such: in a woman, sexuality is intrinsically connected to conception and new life, and therefore to responsibility; whereas contraception - as a social "institution" - represents the separation of freedom from ultimate responsibility. The message proclaimed by society to women thus becomes, "you can have the advantages of sex without the responsibility of motherhood and children". In this way, abortion is seen as the natural consequence of the contraceptive revolution and its volte-face regarding the meaning of womanhood, and of human sexuality. Abortion is simply necessary, to render the contraceptive revolution consistent and to guarantee the message which it proclaimed. Even where personal responsibility does intrude upon freedom (in the shape of a child), it can be swiftly eliminated.
Hence it makes sense for pro-life groups to oppose both contraception and abortion as symptomatic both of the same social disease, which opposes freedom of self determination to absolute responsibility