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	<title>Comments on: The Bible's Broken Promises</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  1 Dec 2008 16:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: TommyP</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-41468</link>
		<dc:creator>TommyP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-41468</guid>
		<description>Yay more failed prophecy links. You can never have enough of those.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yay more failed prophecy links. You can never have enough of those.</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-41417</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-41417</guid>
		<description>Randall, I can.  First, prove that any of the prophecies, which you claim to be fulfilled, were verifiably corroborated by more than one source (which all prohecies must do), and also PROVE that they were not recorded after the alleged event.  Too, prove that they mean what YOU say they mean (since your interpretation could always be wrong).  Another problem: your argument begins with a "given"--but you've not proven (nor can you or anyone else prove)your "given".  There is NO provable evidence, therefore, your argument is totally shot.  I'd like to believe, as I once did, but once I realized that what I thought was true couldn't be verified, I had no chance but to question.  And when I did, I came to the realization that I'd always sounded just like you and your colleagues: desperate and irrational.  Never again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randall, I can.  First, prove that any of the prophecies, which you claim to be fulfilled, were verifiably corroborated by more than one source (which all prohecies must do), and also PROVE that they were not recorded after the alleged event.  Too, prove that they mean what YOU say they mean (since your interpretation could always be wrong).  Another problem: your argument begins with a "given"--but you've not proven (nor can you or anyone else prove)your "given".  There is NO provable evidence, therefore, your argument is totally shot.  I'd like to believe, as I once did, but once I realized that what I thought was true couldn't be verified, I had no chance but to question.  And when I did, I came to the realization that I'd always sounded just like you and your colleagues: desperate and irrational.  Never again.</p>
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		<title>By: Randall</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-39607</link>
		<dc:creator>Randall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 06:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-39607</guid>
		<description>Esteemed Mikespeir &#38; Yunshui,

Any nominal Bible student will tell you that many of the Bible's prophecies are meant to describe a yet-unrealized future. That many Biblical prophecies are INTENDED to be unclear until their fulfillment is built into the text; so I think it premature to discount the argument that some of the prophecies may yet come true.

However, with regard to your point about the open-endedness of the time-frame of their fulfillment, I think I can understand where you are coming from. That someone can just indefinitely say that "Hey, it might come true somewhere in the future" - I believe you are justified in some skepticism at this point. 

For analogy's sake, let's try this: the battered woman who for years refuses to leave her abuser because she says, "I know that he is a good man at heart." Well, that may be so, but that does not justify her faith that he will indeed change. Anything is possible, but the MERE possibility does not count as evidence on which to base a conclusion, particularly in light of evidence to the contrary. To be absurd, suppose I say that "Pan-dimensional, hyper-intelligent mice from another planet who are bent on destroying the Earth MIGHT show up tomorrow." No one can PROVE that it is IMPOSSIBLE; that does not make it in the least bit credible. I think that is akin to the point you are making (correct me if I'm wrong).

Still, I think this misses the point. It is not the POTENTIAL fulfillment of any individual prophecy on which Bible apologists make their stand, but rather, the fulfillment of myriad. Suppose you are right, suppose, to be fair, we disqualify the handful of prophecies which have been pointed out. That still leaves an explanation wanting for the HUNDREDS of others that were fulfilled.

There are, unless I am mistaken, at least two (related) claims at stake here: 1) The Bible proves to be an authoritative Divine revelation because of the sheer quantity and accuracy of its fulfilled prophecies and 2) The Bible is to be considered 100% trustworthy because ALL of its prophecies have been/will be fulfilled. Let us, for argument's sake, strike the latter of these two claims, assume that #2 is unverifiable. That still leaves the first. I do not see how your arguments adequately deal with that; perhaps I am wrong?

You are saying, if I understand you correctly, that one is not justified in lending credence to the Bible on the basis of prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled or seem to be inaccurate. Ok; what about the ones that have been fulfilled? What about the ones that were PIN-POINT accurate? Does that not raise a question?

You have also said that Bible-apologists claim this as "proof-positive." I humbly submit that there are strikingly few things in this life that we can assert with 100% certainty - that does not mean that we are not justified in coming to provisional conclusions based on evidence and reason. I take this task to be not too dissimilar to forensics. My argument then, would look like this: "Given all the available evidence, what are the best explanations to account for the various fulfilled prophecies in the Bible?" My answer is, "Provisionally, as I am unaware of any natural human capacity or human agency that could orchestrate a volume of fantastic and purposeful coincidences to this extent, I conclude that this represents information intentionally organized and directed by a supra-human source." I believe that is a JUSTIFIED explanation.

Can you furnish a BETTER one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Esteemed Mikespeir &amp; Yunshui,</p>
<p>Any nominal Bible student will tell you that many of the Bible's prophecies are meant to describe a yet-unrealized future. That many Biblical prophecies are INTENDED to be unclear until their fulfillment is built into the text; so I think it premature to discount the argument that some of the prophecies may yet come true.</p>
<p>However, with regard to your point about the open-endedness of the time-frame of their fulfillment, I think I can understand where you are coming from. That someone can just indefinitely say that "Hey, it might come true somewhere in the future" - I believe you are justified in some skepticism at this point. </p>
<p>For analogy's sake, let's try this: the battered woman who for years refuses to leave her abuser because she says, "I know that he is a good man at heart." Well, that may be so, but that does not justify her faith that he will indeed change. Anything is possible, but the MERE possibility does not count as evidence on which to base a conclusion, particularly in light of evidence to the contrary. To be absurd, suppose I say that "Pan-dimensional, hyper-intelligent mice from another planet who are bent on destroying the Earth MIGHT show up tomorrow." No one can PROVE that it is IMPOSSIBLE; that does not make it in the least bit credible. I think that is akin to the point you are making (correct me if I'm wrong).</p>
<p>Still, I think this misses the point. It is not the POTENTIAL fulfillment of any individual prophecy on which Bible apologists make their stand, but rather, the fulfillment of myriad. Suppose you are right, suppose, to be fair, we disqualify the handful of prophecies which have been pointed out. That still leaves an explanation wanting for the HUNDREDS of others that were fulfilled.</p>
<p>There are, unless I am mistaken, at least two (related) claims at stake here: 1) The Bible proves to be an authoritative Divine revelation because of the sheer quantity and accuracy of its fulfilled prophecies and 2) The Bible is to be considered 100% trustworthy because ALL of its prophecies have been/will be fulfilled. Let us, for argument's sake, strike the latter of these two claims, assume that #2 is unverifiable. That still leaves the first. I do not see how your arguments adequately deal with that; perhaps I am wrong?</p>
<p>You are saying, if I understand you correctly, that one is not justified in lending credence to the Bible on the basis of prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled or seem to be inaccurate. Ok; what about the ones that have been fulfilled? What about the ones that were PIN-POINT accurate? Does that not raise a question?</p>
<p>You have also said that Bible-apologists claim this as "proof-positive." I humbly submit that there are strikingly few things in this life that we can assert with 100% certainty - that does not mean that we are not justified in coming to provisional conclusions based on evidence and reason. I take this task to be not too dissimilar to forensics. My argument then, would look like this: "Given all the available evidence, what are the best explanations to account for the various fulfilled prophecies in the Bible?" My answer is, "Provisionally, as I am unaware of any natural human capacity or human agency that could orchestrate a volume of fantastic and purposeful coincidences to this extent, I conclude that this represents information intentionally organized and directed by a supra-human source." I believe that is a JUSTIFIED explanation.</p>
<p>Can you furnish a BETTER one?</p>
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		<title>By: yunshui</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-36562</link>
		<dc:creator>yunshui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-36562</guid>
		<description>Logismous: 

We might find evidence in the future of life on Mars, therefore there must be life on Mars. Do you see why that doesn't work? If you argue that prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, you can't then argue that the Bible is true because of fulfilled prophecy.

I say again, find a better argument, apologists!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Logismous: </p>
<p>We might find evidence in the future of life on Mars, therefore there must be life on Mars. Do you see why that doesn't work? If you argue that prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, you can't then argue that the Bible is true because of fulfilled prophecy.</p>
<p>I say again, find a better argument, apologists!</p>
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		<title>By: Brock</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-36542</link>
		<dc:creator>Brock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-36542</guid>
		<description>RE: Matthew 10:23.
   Read the entire chapter rather than taking the quotation out of context.  This comes from Jesus' instructions to his disciples to carry out the mission of witnessing to the people of Israel.  The two parts of the verse are not necessarily related.  What Jesus is saying is that his disciples will not have time to complete their mission of spreading the gospel to Israel before the Coming.  I think it would be hard to find a Jew who hasn't heard about Xianity at this point.  Thus, this is a failed prophecy.
    OK, to be fair, this is my interpretation.  Which brings us back to the point that most of the so-called prophecies of the Bible, like all good prophecies, are so vague that it's impossible to prove/disprove them, witness the spectacular nitpicking that apologists are prone to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Matthew 10:23.<br />
   Read the entire chapter rather than taking the quotation out of context.  This comes from Jesus' instructions to his disciples to carry out the mission of witnessing to the people of Israel.  The two parts of the verse are not necessarily related.  What Jesus is saying is that his disciples will not have time to complete their mission of spreading the gospel to Israel before the Coming.  I think it would be hard to find a Jew who hasn't heard about Xianity at this point.  Thus, this is a failed prophecy.<br />
    OK, to be fair, this is my interpretation.  Which brings us back to the point that most of the so-called prophecies of the Bible, like all good prophecies, are so vague that it's impossible to prove/disprove them, witness the spectacular nitpicking that apologists are prone to.</p>
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		<title>By: mikespeir</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-36531</link>
		<dc:creator>mikespeir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-36531</guid>
		<description>So it's completely open-ended, Logismous?  No matter how long time goes on you can still suggest that "maybe" the fulfillment is still around the corner?  There will never be a time when anyone can say definitively, "Well, it didn't happen.  Let's move on"?  According to Second Peter, a day with God is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.  Why, in A.D. 1,000,000 that'll only be 1000 days--less than three years to you and me.  Christians then, if the religion exists then, could still be insisting that Jesus is coming "soon" by that kind of reasoning.

The real problem with the way you're thinking is that Christians put forth prophecy as proof positive for the inspiration of Scripture.  And yet those prophecies haven't panned out.  Even if they only &lt;i&gt;apparently&lt;/i&gt; haven't been fulfilled, they still are apparently unfulfilled.  What makes that good evidence that the Bible is the "Word of "God"?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it's completely open-ended, Logismous?  No matter how long time goes on you can still suggest that "maybe" the fulfillment is still around the corner?  There will never be a time when anyone can say definitively, "Well, it didn't happen.  Let's move on"?  According to Second Peter, a day with God is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.  Why, in A.D. 1,000,000 that'll only be 1000 days--less than three years to you and me.  Christians then, if the religion exists then, could still be insisting that Jesus is coming "soon" by that kind of reasoning.</p>
<p>The real problem with the way you're thinking is that Christians put forth prophecy as proof positive for the inspiration of Scripture.  And yet those prophecies haven't panned out.  Even if they only <i>apparently</i> haven't been fulfilled, they still are apparently unfulfilled.  What makes that good evidence that the Bible is the "Word of "God"?</p>
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		<title>By: Logismous Kathairountes</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-36522</link>
		<dc:creator>Logismous Kathairountes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 05:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-36522</guid>
		<description>I'd just like to point out that history is not yet finished.  God promised to destroy Tyre and Egypt and give a certain amount of land to His chosen people, and He doesn't seem to have done it yet.  But think about it logically - Don't assume that the prophecy says more than it actually says.  Maybe He'll do it in the future.

It's notoriously difficult proving negatives.  For instance, take that Matthew 10:23 prophecy.  I realize you weren't providing it as an example of an unfulfilled prophecy, but it's a great example of my point.

It has two parts:  A command ("When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.") and a prediction ("I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.").  The command cannot possibly be proved false since it's not making any claim.

The prediction is that a certain group of people will NOT do a certain thing before He returns.  Do you have proof that they actually did do that thing?  You'd need a list of the cities of Israel, a list of the people He was talking to, and a travel history for each one of those people.

Seems to me that if there's a single city that those people did not flee to, then no matter how long He takes coming back He'll have kept that promise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd just like to point out that history is not yet finished.  God promised to destroy Tyre and Egypt and give a certain amount of land to His chosen people, and He doesn't seem to have done it yet.  But think about it logically - Don't assume that the prophecy says more than it actually says.  Maybe He'll do it in the future.</p>
<p>It's notoriously difficult proving negatives.  For instance, take that Matthew 10:23 prophecy.  I realize you weren't providing it as an example of an unfulfilled prophecy, but it's a great example of my point.</p>
<p>It has two parts:  A command ("When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.") and a prediction ("I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.").  The command cannot possibly be proved false since it's not making any claim.</p>
<p>The prediction is that a certain group of people will NOT do a certain thing before He returns.  Do you have proof that they actually did do that thing?  You'd need a list of the cities of Israel, a list of the people He was talking to, and a travel history for each one of those people.</p>
<p>Seems to me that if there's a single city that those people did not flee to, then no matter how long He takes coming back He'll have kept that promise.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-36512</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-36512</guid>
		<description>In Isaiah, in the section where he rags on the Egyptians, there is a reference to the Nile River drying up.  While the Nile is not specifically named, when you associate "the River" with Egypt, it is pretty obvious which one you are talking about.  Needless to say, the Nile has not dried up yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Isaiah, in the section where he rags on the Egyptians, there is a reference to the Nile River drying up.  While the Nile is not specifically named, when you associate "the River" with Egypt, it is pretty obvious which one you are talking about.  Needless to say, the Nile has not dried up yet.</p>
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		<title>By: 2-D Man</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-36509</link>
		<dc:creator>2-D Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-36509</guid>
		<description>The apologist goes on to say,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Since the probability for any one of these [2000] prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 10^2000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Even if one accepts (on faith - hah!) that this guy isn't lying or wrong, as yunshui pointed, it seems he only has a rudimentary grasp of probability, and is not capable of properly analyzing the data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The apologist goes on to say,</p>
<blockquote><p>Since the probability for any one of these [2000] prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 10^2000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!</p></blockquote>
<p>Even if one accepts (on faith - hah!) that this guy isn't lying or wrong, as yunshui pointed, it seems he only has a rudimentary grasp of probability, and is not capable of properly analyzing the data.</p>
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		<title>By: Valhar2000</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises.html#comment-36504</link>
		<dc:creator>Valhar2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=758#comment-36504</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Find a better argument, apologists!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, the idea that anyone would think biblical prophecies are even vaguely correct, much less "fulfilled to the letter — no errors", is amazing and incomprehensible. Say what you will about the ontological argument, or the argument form design, or even the execrable Pascal's Wager: they run rings around this sort of idiocy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Find a better argument, apologists!</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, the idea that anyone would think biblical prophecies are even vaguely correct, much less "fulfilled to the letter — no errors", is amazing and incomprehensible. Say what you will about the ontological argument, or the argument form design, or even the execrable Pascal's Wager: they run rings around this sort of idiocy.</p>
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