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	<title>Comments on: Popular Delusions X: Crystal Power</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  1 Dec 2008 16:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: LindaJoy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-37023</link>
		<dc:creator>LindaJoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 03:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-37023</guid>
		<description>Velkyn- I still get the impression that you think I declared that I thought the crystals that gave me that physiological effect in my hand was a result of them having some "power". I did not say that. I did not draw any conclusions from the experience because there was no way for me to test that experience scientifically. I did try to get that effect from other objects, but was unable to reproduce it. I brought up the "spooky action at a distance" particle phenomenon (as physicists call it) as an example of something in science that has a sort of woo-woo appearance and has yet to be explained. I also did not mean to imply that skeptical questioning of claims is rigid. I meant that drawing conclusions that something is "delusional" and therefore not to be considered anymore can sometimes be a rigid response. Einstein figured out his greatest theories by keeping an open mind and using his imagination, and lots fell into his mind that was quite successful. Thanks for the info on dowsing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Velkyn- I still get the impression that you think I declared that I thought the crystals that gave me that physiological effect in my hand was a result of them having some "power". I did not say that. I did not draw any conclusions from the experience because there was no way for me to test that experience scientifically. I did try to get that effect from other objects, but was unable to reproduce it. I brought up the "spooky action at a distance" particle phenomenon (as physicists call it) as an example of something in science that has a sort of woo-woo appearance and has yet to be explained. I also did not mean to imply that skeptical questioning of claims is rigid. I meant that drawing conclusions that something is "delusional" and therefore not to be considered anymore can sometimes be a rigid response. Einstein figured out his greatest theories by keeping an open mind and using his imagination, and lots fell into his mind that was quite successful. Thanks for the info on dowsing.</p>
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		<title>By: velkyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-37009</link>
		<dc:creator>velkyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-37009</guid>
		<description>No, I'm not insinuating that you are any type of creationist. However, the blind acceptance of any claims with questionable support is a commonality to those who accept creationism, crystal power, pyramid power, "magik", etc.  That's all I was noting.  

Dowsing is quite a bit like using a Ouija board.  You "think" you are finding something by the movements. However, the actual chance that anyone can immediately confirm the presence of whatever you are dowsing for, be it water or minerals, is very rare.  Also, the substance claimed to be found is often to be expected.  Water will likely be found wherever you drill, the depth might change but that variablity is often what "saves" dowsers when if they come up with a dry hole.  Another example is that a natural gas well on my parents farm was supposedly dowsed.  However, the farm is in western Pennsylvania where you can hardly drill a deep hole without finding gas.  In any double-blind study, you won't get a positive correlation. A study was done in Germany and CSICOP has a good article about it: http://www.csicop.org/si/9901/dowsing.html  

I'm sorry if you didn't intend to connect quantum physics with magic. To me, it did seem that you did intend that since you seemed to be indicating that the evidence of its being valid was the same as a "feeling".  Your response may have been physiological but without some, say black boxes, with nothing, a lovely crystal and a lump of limestone, and you with your hand over them and finding the right one a reasonable percentage of the time, I still have to doubt.  I've gotten "feelings" from tarot cards, but couldnt' tell the difference between them and stack of paper.  And I do think that investigating such a response, if it does exist, would be quite interesting and important.  Any effect over distance that hasn't been explained would have many potential applications. As for experiences that "reasonable and rational people" have, who does the defining of reasonable and rational? :)    

I don't consider the questioning of claims to be "rigid".  I do ascribe to the idea that if you keep your mind open, anything can fall in.  Some caution and skepticism is always good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I'm not insinuating that you are any type of creationist. However, the blind acceptance of any claims with questionable support is a commonality to those who accept creationism, crystal power, pyramid power, "magik", etc.  That's all I was noting.  </p>
<p>Dowsing is quite a bit like using a Ouija board.  You "think" you are finding something by the movements. However, the actual chance that anyone can immediately confirm the presence of whatever you are dowsing for, be it water or minerals, is very rare.  Also, the substance claimed to be found is often to be expected.  Water will likely be found wherever you drill, the depth might change but that variablity is often what "saves" dowsers when if they come up with a dry hole.  Another example is that a natural gas well on my parents farm was supposedly dowsed.  However, the farm is in western Pennsylvania where you can hardly drill a deep hole without finding gas.  In any double-blind study, you won't get a positive correlation. A study was done in Germany and CSICOP has a good article about it: <a href="http://www.csicop.org/si/9901/dowsing.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.csicop.org/si/9901/dowsing.html</a>  </p>
<p>I'm sorry if you didn't intend to connect quantum physics with magic. To me, it did seem that you did intend that since you seemed to be indicating that the evidence of its being valid was the same as a "feeling".  Your response may have been physiological but without some, say black boxes, with nothing, a lovely crystal and a lump of limestone, and you with your hand over them and finding the right one a reasonable percentage of the time, I still have to doubt.  I've gotten "feelings" from tarot cards, but couldnt' tell the difference between them and stack of paper.  And I do think that investigating such a response, if it does exist, would be quite interesting and important.  Any effect over distance that hasn't been explained would have many potential applications. As for experiences that "reasonable and rational people" have, who does the defining of reasonable and rational? :)    </p>
<p>I don't consider the questioning of claims to be "rigid".  I do ascribe to the idea that if you keep your mind open, anything can fall in.  Some caution and skepticism is always good.</p>
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		<title>By: LindaJoy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36999</link>
		<dc:creator>LindaJoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36999</guid>
		<description>PS to Velkyn- I certainly hope that you were not insinuating that I am some kind of "creationist"!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS to Velkyn- I certainly hope that you were not insinuating that I am some kind of "creationist"!</p>
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		<title>By: LindaJoy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36998</link>
		<dc:creator>LindaJoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36998</guid>
		<description>Velkyn- I worked at at high energy particle physics facility, and I did not bring that issue up because I think that there is any connection between quantum observations and new age thinking. Deepak Chopra does stuff like that. So does Amit Goswami- who is a physicist. I am saying that people have experiences, like I did with the hand sensation that I experienced when holding it over the crystals, that may have some kind of scientific explanation behind them. I did not say that crystals heal or anything remoting related to "powers" of crystals. You had said that there was a scientific explanation for your dowsing experience. (I'd be curious to know what that is). That is exactly what I was talking about. People have these experiences and tend to leap to unscientific conclusions, when there may be an opportunity to find a scientific one. I highly doubt a scientist would want to bother with finding the reason my palm had the physiological response that I experienced. So I just will file it away as an unexplained event. While I appreciate skepticism and lean towards it for the most part, sometimes skeptics just dismiss experiences that reasonable and rational people have as bunk to be discarded from consideration, and I get uncomfortable with that rigidity of thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Velkyn- I worked at at high energy particle physics facility, and I did not bring that issue up because I think that there is any connection between quantum observations and new age thinking. Deepak Chopra does stuff like that. So does Amit Goswami- who is a physicist. I am saying that people have experiences, like I did with the hand sensation that I experienced when holding it over the crystals, that may have some kind of scientific explanation behind them. I did not say that crystals heal or anything remoting related to "powers" of crystals. You had said that there was a scientific explanation for your dowsing experience. (I'd be curious to know what that is). That is exactly what I was talking about. People have these experiences and tend to leap to unscientific conclusions, when there may be an opportunity to find a scientific one. I highly doubt a scientist would want to bother with finding the reason my palm had the physiological response that I experienced. So I just will file it away as an unexplained event. While I appreciate skepticism and lean towards it for the most part, sometimes skeptics just dismiss experiences that reasonable and rational people have as bunk to be discarded from consideration, and I get uncomfortable with that rigidity of thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: velkyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36995</link>
		<dc:creator>velkyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36995</guid>
		<description>I have also done dowsing and was sure it worked, but when actually using the scientific method to determine what was really happening, it doesn't.  

After doing a bit of googling, strangely enough, though I find much about how "scientific research" supposedly supports crystal "power" there is not one instance of the claimant actually providing any peer reviewed studies (or any studies at all) to check out.  This is a big sign that there isn't any research, which begs the question, why haven't these "believers" ever done any themselves to validate the idea?  Belief is worthless with no evidence and vague claims of "healing the aura" or make the heart "stronger", or acting as a shield against "psychic attacks" aren't evidence.  Let me see the crystal heal a open wound or a tumor.  The big new thing is claiming that lumps of rock salt from the "Himalayas" is somehow "magic". Shades of promises of Xanadu or Shangri-la, yes?  The "crystal skulls" have also popped back up again, to be discredited again. The Skepdic has a good entry on it: http://skepdic.com/crystals.html  

At best, the attempt to say that "magic" might be there if we could only find it *and* that the scientific method could support it, is more than a bit specious.  We don't even have the slightest evidence that anything is happening.  There are no theories about this since there is no empirical evidence to base theories on.  To further equate this "mysterious force" that has no evidence to quantum physics which does seems to be the usual use of misunderstood science and simple wishful thinking that anyone who supports the unproveable.  Creationists do it all of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have also done dowsing and was sure it worked, but when actually using the scientific method to determine what was really happening, it doesn't.  </p>
<p>After doing a bit of googling, strangely enough, though I find much about how "scientific research" supposedly supports crystal "power" there is not one instance of the claimant actually providing any peer reviewed studies (or any studies at all) to check out.  This is a big sign that there isn't any research, which begs the question, why haven't these "believers" ever done any themselves to validate the idea?  Belief is worthless with no evidence and vague claims of "healing the aura" or make the heart "stronger", or acting as a shield against "psychic attacks" aren't evidence.  Let me see the crystal heal a open wound or a tumor.  The big new thing is claiming that lumps of rock salt from the "Himalayas" is somehow "magic". Shades of promises of Xanadu or Shangri-la, yes?  The "crystal skulls" have also popped back up again, to be discredited again. The Skepdic has a good entry on it: <a href="http://skepdic.com/crystals.html" rel="nofollow">http://skepdic.com/crystals.html</a>  </p>
<p>At best, the attempt to say that "magic" might be there if we could only find it *and* that the scientific method could support it, is more than a bit specious.  We don't even have the slightest evidence that anything is happening.  There are no theories about this since there is no empirical evidence to base theories on.  To further equate this "mysterious force" that has no evidence to quantum physics which does seems to be the usual use of misunderstood science and simple wishful thinking that anyone who supports the unproveable.  Creationists do it all of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: LindaJoy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36952</link>
		<dc:creator>LindaJoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36952</guid>
		<description>Hi Stacy!:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Stacy!:)</p>
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		<title>By: LindaJoy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36951</link>
		<dc:creator>LindaJoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36951</guid>
		<description>Well Steve- our bodies do produce an electromagnetic field and perhaps there is some science in the reaction between bodies and rock crystals. It would be interesting to investigate. There are some serious scientific studies being done on ESP experiences. There are things we don't know about the universe that look to be woo-woo on the outside that may come to be explained scientifically. Quantum physics still can't explain the mysterious connection between particles that causes two bits of a split particle to instantaneously respond to an action on only one of the bits. We may eventually come to a scientific explanation for ghost phenomenon or other paranormal experiences. I understand and agree with the skepticism expressed here about the types of claims made about rocks and gems referenced in this article, but a true scientific mind would not close the door completely to this area being studied for proof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Steve- our bodies do produce an electromagnetic field and perhaps there is some science in the reaction between bodies and rock crystals. It would be interesting to investigate. There are some serious scientific studies being done on ESP experiences. There are things we don't know about the universe that look to be woo-woo on the outside that may come to be explained scientifically. Quantum physics still can't explain the mysterious connection between particles that causes two bits of a split particle to instantaneously respond to an action on only one of the bits. We may eventually come to a scientific explanation for ghost phenomenon or other paranormal experiences. I understand and agree with the skepticism expressed here about the types of claims made about rocks and gems referenced in this article, but a true scientific mind would not close the door completely to this area being studied for proof.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36950</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36950</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;One of the experiences I had with chrystals was going to a rock and gem show where I held my hand palm down over various large chrystal samples a few inches above. I felt definite tingling/prickling sensations in my palm.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Hey Lindajoy. I had similar feelings when I joined my ex-wife on a Reiki course. Even hardened skeptics can be victim to suggestion, which is why people get suckered into believing this stuff.
However the serious point here is that all sorts of beliefs can "work" even if the believer knows deep down they are just woo woo. To go back to my ex, she is wiccan and practiced (practices) all sorts of rituals with crystals and wands and cups and herbs and... etc. However she will happily admit that it does nothing in reality, it's just her way of dealing with stuff, an illusion of control in a random world. In some way I think it's a vindication of belief in belief, although I couldn't live that way myself. At least the new age types don't insist we all wear crystals unlike the fundies who would have a fish on every bumper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>One of the experiences I had with chrystals was going to a rock and gem show where I held my hand palm down over various large chrystal samples a few inches above. I felt definite tingling/prickling sensations in my palm.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hey Lindajoy. I had similar feelings when I joined my ex-wife on a Reiki course. Even hardened skeptics can be victim to suggestion, which is why people get suckered into believing this stuff.<br />
However the serious point here is that all sorts of beliefs can "work" even if the believer knows deep down they are just woo woo. To go back to my ex, she is wiccan and practiced (practices) all sorts of rituals with crystals and wands and cups and herbs and... etc. However she will happily admit that it does nothing in reality, it's just her way of dealing with stuff, an illusion of control in a random world. In some way I think it's a vindication of belief in belief, although I couldn't live that way myself. At least the new age types don't insist we all wear crystals unlike the fundies who would have a fish on every bumper.</p>
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		<title>By: velkyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36948</link>
		<dc:creator>velkyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36948</guid>
		<description>having my degree in Geology, "crystal power" just makes me giggle.  What's even funnier is the water that you can get that has the "power" in it from having crystals soaking there. 

I mean, really, if crystals have power, these babies http://giantcrystals.strahlen.org/america/naica.htm must be lighting up the sky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>having my degree in Geology, "crystal power" just makes me giggle.  What's even funnier is the water that you can get that has the "power" in it from having crystals soaking there. </p>
<p>I mean, really, if crystals have power, these babies <a href="http://giantcrystals.strahlen.org/america/naica.htm" rel="nofollow">http://giantcrystals.strahlen.org/america/naica.htm</a> must be lighting up the sky.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/popular-delusions-x.html#comment-36939</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=773#comment-36939</guid>
		<description>Paradoctor,

"The difference is that gold really does have power; for its cult rules."

Now that you mention this, I remember my old anthropology teacher mentioning that many acient cultures did believe that metals like gold held magical powers to attain material goods - perhaps this association between gold and material wealth that exists today is descended from tha mentality?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paradoctor,</p>
<p>"The difference is that gold really does have power; for its cult rules."</p>
<p>Now that you mention this, I remember my old anthropology teacher mentioning that many acient cultures did believe that metals like gold held magical powers to attain material goods - perhaps this association between gold and material wealth that exists today is descended from tha mentality?</p>
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