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	<title>Comments on: The Uses of Pre-Scientific Cosmology</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  1 Dec 2008 16:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
	
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		<title>By: Malenfant</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37390</link>
		<dc:creator>Malenfant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37390</guid>
		<description>Maybe these People should read some books by Brian Greene or Lisa Randall. But i am afraid that speculations on M-Theory , 11 Dimensions or Multiverses of Branes might give them even crazier ideas of the possibility of a 'Maker'. So, they better stick to their ancient ideas and pose no real danger to Science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe these People should read some books by Brian Greene or Lisa Randall. But i am afraid that speculations on M-Theory , 11 Dimensions or Multiverses of Branes might give them even crazier ideas of the possibility of a 'Maker'. So, they better stick to their ancient ideas and pose no real danger to Science.</p>
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		<title>By: Will E.</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37383</link>
		<dc:creator>Will E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37383</guid>
		<description>Religions which somehow managed to "guess" at the correct age of the earth or the make-up of physical beings like Buddhism or its parent religion Hinduism, to me, aren't any better than religions which are completely off-base, such as fundamentalist Xianity or Orthodox Judaism. A guess is still a guess--in these instances it wasn't an educated guess based on experiment or logic. Unlike many unbelievers I see no special relevance in Eastern faiths, except that to us Westerners they seem "exotic" only because of our unfamiliarity with them. While I do find an entity like Kali more interesting than, say, Jesus, that's akin to saying I prefer Batman to Superman. Or Indiana Jones to Han Solo. Or Travis Bickle to Hamlet. Made-up BS is still made-up BS no matter how much it seems to anticipate to the results of rigorous, logical, falsifiable experiments made by real hard-working scientists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religions which somehow managed to "guess" at the correct age of the earth or the make-up of physical beings like Buddhism or its parent religion Hinduism, to me, aren't any better than religions which are completely off-base, such as fundamentalist Xianity or Orthodox Judaism. A guess is still a guess--in these instances it wasn't an educated guess based on experiment or logic. Unlike many unbelievers I see no special relevance in Eastern faiths, except that to us Westerners they seem "exotic" only because of our unfamiliarity with them. While I do find an entity like Kali more interesting than, say, Jesus, that's akin to saying I prefer Batman to Superman. Or Indiana Jones to Han Solo. Or Travis Bickle to Hamlet. Made-up BS is still made-up BS no matter how much it seems to anticipate to the results of rigorous, logical, falsifiable experiments made by real hard-working scientists.</p>
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		<title>By: goyo</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37382</link>
		<dc:creator>goyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37382</guid>
		<description>Don't forget the Antikythera Mechanism, which shows that the Greek philosophy, if continued, would have brought science into the forefront, instead of 1,000 years of dark ages ruled by backwards religious philosophy. 
It always makes me wonder what would have happened if this scientific thought had caught up with Leonardo da Vinci, at the right time. 
As others have said, he just lacked a motor.
But you're right, no religion anticipated any later scientific revelation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don't forget the Antikythera Mechanism, which shows that the Greek philosophy, if continued, would have brought science into the forefront, instead of 1,000 years of dark ages ruled by backwards religious philosophy.<br />
It always makes me wonder what would have happened if this scientific thought had caught up with Leonardo da Vinci, at the right time.<br />
As others have said, he just lacked a motor.<br />
But you're right, no religion anticipated any later scientific revelation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37380</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37380</guid>
		<description>From what I've seen, Eastern religions tended to do somewhat better than their Western counterparts. The Hindu cosmology, for example, has a cosmos whose existence is within a few orders of magnitude of the real answer. Other people have seen &lt;a href="http://www.popularscience.co.uk/reviews/rev120.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;additional parallels&lt;/a&gt;, though I find most of those to be more of a stretch.

Ironically, I think the one group of ancient people that did the best was the group that wasn't motivated by religion at all: the Greek philosophers of antiquity. Democritus and Epicurus, for example, correctly guessed that the cosmos was made of atoms, millennia before there was any way to experimentally confirm such an idea. If they had claimed divine revelation led them to this belief, it would probably have been the most impressive example of a religion correctly anticipating a later scientific discovery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I've seen, Eastern religions tended to do somewhat better than their Western counterparts. The Hindu cosmology, for example, has a cosmos whose existence is within a few orders of magnitude of the real answer. Other people have seen <a href="http://www.popularscience.co.uk/reviews/rev120.htm" rel="nofollow">additional parallels</a>, though I find most of those to be more of a stretch.</p>
<p>Ironically, I think the one group of ancient people that did the best was the group that wasn't motivated by religion at all: the Greek philosophers of antiquity. Democritus and Epicurus, for example, correctly guessed that the cosmos was made of atoms, millennia before there was any way to experimentally confirm such an idea. If they had claimed divine revelation led them to this belief, it would probably have been the most impressive example of a religion correctly anticipating a later scientific discovery.</p>
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		<title>By: Eshu</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37378</link>
		<dc:creator>Eshu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37378</guid>
		<description>It might be interesting to compare this with other religions such as &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism" rel="nofollow"&gt;Buddhism&lt;/a&gt;. It perhaps doesn't give any great insight into the workings of the cosmos, and it certainly has it's share of silliness, but some of the ideas are more reasonable than they first appear. In one sense reincarnation happens at least with the atoms in an organisms' body being recycled and used in other, later creatures. Almost certainly not what they meant, however.

But it makes me wonder - were there any religions whose guesses about the cosmos were much better than average?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might be interesting to compare this with other religions such as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism" rel="nofollow">Buddhism</a>. It perhaps doesn't give any great insight into the workings of the cosmos, and it certainly has it's share of silliness, but some of the ideas are more reasonable than they first appear. In one sense reincarnation happens at least with the atoms in an organisms' body being recycled and used in other, later creatures. Almost certainly not what they meant, however.</p>
<p>But it makes me wonder - were there any religions whose guesses about the cosmos were much better than average?</p>
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		<title>By: the chaplain</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37377</link>
		<dc:creator>the chaplain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37377</guid>
		<description>Good post, Ebon. David G., I agree with your criticisms of Christians who use the imminent end of the world as an excuse to behave carelessly. There are other Christians, though, who believe that humanity should exercise good "stewardship" of the dominion that God has placed in their care. Both attitudes exhibit different forms of arrogance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, Ebon. David G., I agree with your criticisms of Christians who use the imminent end of the world as an excuse to behave carelessly. There are other Christians, though, who believe that humanity should exercise good "stewardship" of the dominion that God has placed in their care. Both attitudes exhibit different forms of arrogance.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommykey</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37373</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommykey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37373</guid>
		<description>Good post Ebon.  Once again you hit on a topic that I have been meaning to address, though I still have enough of my own angle on it that I will still get to it when I get the time.

A couple of minor points:

&lt;em&gt;Christianity had a broader focus and thought of itself as a universal religion in a way Judaism never did.&lt;/em&gt;

From what I have read, Judaism was an evangelical religion before it was eclipsed by Christianity.  It is estimated that at one point roughly 10% of the population of the Roman Empire was Jewish, which could have only been attained if non-Jews were converting to Judaism.

&lt;em&gt;There are still millions of theists who believe in a tiny cosmos, created by God a scant few millennia ago and destined to end in the imminent future.&lt;/em&gt;

I have butted heads (figuratively, of course!) with a few Christians who actually argue the opposite, that the vast extent of the cosmos is only further evidence in their eyes of the greatness of the God of the Bible.  When I ask them what the rest of the universe is for if all that matters is for humans on one small planet in just one of billions of galaxies to accept Jesus and be saved, they just dismiss it as being part of God's plan that we just can't know at this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post Ebon.  Once again you hit on a topic that I have been meaning to address, though I still have enough of my own angle on it that I will still get to it when I get the time.</p>
<p>A couple of minor points:</p>
<p><em>Christianity had a broader focus and thought of itself as a universal religion in a way Judaism never did.</em></p>
<p>From what I have read, Judaism was an evangelical religion before it was eclipsed by Christianity.  It is estimated that at one point roughly 10% of the population of the Roman Empire was Jewish, which could have only been attained if non-Jews were converting to Judaism.</p>
<p><em>There are still millions of theists who believe in a tiny cosmos, created by God a scant few millennia ago and destined to end in the imminent future.</em></p>
<p>I have butted heads (figuratively, of course!) with a few Christians who actually argue the opposite, that the vast extent of the cosmos is only further evidence in their eyes of the greatness of the God of the Bible.  When I ask them what the rest of the universe is for if all that matters is for humans on one small planet in just one of billions of galaxies to accept Jesus and be saved, they just dismiss it as being part of God's plan that we just can't know at this time.</p>
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		<title>By: David D.G.</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37371</link>
		<dc:creator>David D.G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37371</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There are still millions who believe the Earth is the only place that matters in the grand scheme of things.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Even worse, there are still millions who believe that even Earth doesn't matter -- that they can despoil it with abandon, precisely because they expect God to come along any day now and, after a few years of inconvenient tribulation (for everyone else, while they are safely raptured away), completely rebuild the Earth anew.

In other words, they see our life-giving planet as disposable, and some even go so far as to say that to act otherwise (by recycling, conserving resources, etc.) shows a lack of faith in God!  It's a terrifyingly disturbing mindset, literally glorifying the practice of environmentally destructive waste.  The rational mind boggles.


~David D.G.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There are still millions who believe the Earth is the only place that matters in the grand scheme of things.</p></blockquote>
<p>Even worse, there are still millions who believe that even Earth doesn't matter -- that they can despoil it with abandon, precisely because they expect God to come along any day now and, after a few years of inconvenient tribulation (for everyone else, while they are safely raptured away), completely rebuild the Earth anew.</p>
<p>In other words, they see our life-giving planet as disposable, and some even go so far as to say that to act otherwise (by recycling, conserving resources, etc.) shows a lack of faith in God!  It's a terrifyingly disturbing mindset, literally glorifying the practice of environmentally destructive waste.  The rational mind boggles.</p>
<p>~David D.G.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37370</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37370</guid>
		<description>Parallel to the Universe's great extent in space is its great extent in time and its delightfully complicated history over that time. Most prescientific speculations had no idea of this, falling into two main classes:

* The Universe was created at the beginning of remembered history or not long before.

* The Universe is eternal, and was always much the same way that it is today.

The latter possibility was popular among various Greco-Roman philosophers, notably Aristotle, the atomists and Epicureans, and the Stoics. However, most Christian theologians until the last few centuries took it for granted that the Universe was only 6000 years old or thereabouts; in Bk. 18 of his "City of God", Augustine harrumphed at those who claimed that the Universe is much older than 6000 years.

Many present-day fundies continue to believe in such a limited timeline; they believe that the Universe is only about 6000 years old and they believe that Jesus Christ's Second Coming or the Rapture or whatever will happen any day now. In fact, many fundies seem to skip from the "Bible time", as it might be called, to some time in the last few centuries when True Xianity was supposedly reintroduced. In fact, some fundies seem to believe that True Xianity was kept going all those centuries by a colony that hid away in the mountains of Switzerland. They moved there when the Church got corrupted in its early centuries, and they moved out after the Reformation broke that fake Church's hold on northern Europe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Parallel to the Universe's great extent in space is its great extent in time and its delightfully complicated history over that time. Most prescientific speculations had no idea of this, falling into two main classes:</p>
<p>* The Universe was created at the beginning of remembered history or not long before.</p>
<p>* The Universe is eternal, and was always much the same way that it is today.</p>
<p>The latter possibility was popular among various Greco-Roman philosophers, notably Aristotle, the atomists and Epicureans, and the Stoics. However, most Christian theologians until the last few centuries took it for granted that the Universe was only 6000 years old or thereabouts; in Bk. 18 of his "City of God", Augustine harrumphed at those who claimed that the Universe is much older than 6000 years.</p>
<p>Many present-day fundies continue to believe in such a limited timeline; they believe that the Universe is only about 6000 years old and they believe that Jesus Christ's Second Coming or the Rapture or whatever will happen any day now. In fact, many fundies seem to skip from the "Bible time", as it might be called, to some time in the last few centuries when True Xianity was supposedly reintroduced. In fact, some fundies seem to believe that True Xianity was kept going all those centuries by a colony that hid away in the mountains of Switzerland. They moved there when the Church got corrupted in its early centuries, and they moved out after the Reformation broke that fake Church's hold on northern Europe.</p>
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		<title>By: velkyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/pre-scientific-cosmology.html#comment-37369</link>
		<dc:creator>velkyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=786#comment-37369</guid>
		<description>"inquisitors who plainly preferred a small god presiding over a small cosmos"  which they thought made them "big fish".  Most theists want a small cosmos because they think they, through the endless beseeching of their respective deities, can control it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"inquisitors who plainly preferred a small god presiding over a small cosmos"  which they thought made them "big fish".  Most theists want a small cosmos because they think they, through the endless beseeching of their respective deities, can control it.</p>
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