Comments on: Strange and Curious Sects: Sabbatai Zevi http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:03:26 +0000 By: lpetrich http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37417 lpetrich Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:14:33 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37417 Returning to Sabbatai Zevi, he allegedly worked lots of miracles, though he is far from alone in having miracles attributed to him. Pythagoras, Augustus Caesar, Vespasian, Apollonius of Tyana, lots of medieval saints, ... and nowadays the likes of Sai Baba. And SZ's disinterest in sex with his wives -- a lot of holy people seem to have an aversion to sexual activity. There might be some neurological basis for that; neurologist V.S. Ramachandran has found that some Temporal Lobe Epilepsy patients get aroused by religious imagery in the way that "normal" people often get aroused by sexual imagery. He mentioned that curious result in his talk at the first Beyond Belief conference. Returning to Sabbatai Zevi, he allegedly worked lots of miracles, though he is far from alone in having miracles attributed to him. Pythagoras, Augustus Caesar, Vespasian, Apollonius of Tyana, lots of medieval saints, ... and nowadays the likes of Sai Baba.

And SZ's disinterest in sex with his wives -- a lot of holy people seem to have an aversion to sexual activity. There might be some neurological basis for that; neurologist V.S. Ramachandran has found that some Temporal Lobe Epilepsy patients get aroused by religious imagery in the way that "normal" people often get aroused by sexual imagery. He mentioned that curious result in his talk at the first Beyond Belief conference.

]]> By: Valhar2000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37401 Valhar2000 Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:57:44 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37401 Are these people really all that creative? I mean, if you compare these apologetics to the theories scientists have come up with over the centuries, the apologetics fall very short. You know, nature is smarter than you, and all that rot... Are these people really all that creative? I mean, if you compare these apologetics to the theories scientists have come up with over the centuries, the apologetics fall very short. You know, nature is smarter than you, and all that rot...

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37381 Ebonmuse Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:20:59 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37381 <blockquote>If only the "checking to see whether your ideas reflect reality" part were as fun as the "making up wild stories" part...</blockquote> Well put, Mike. :) What we can take away from this story is that, if we don't require our hypotheses be testable, people can be infinitely creative in coming up with explanations that swerve and bend as necessary to explain the facts. Any set of facts can be explained in a nearly limitless number of ways. People whose true motivation is the desire to believe, not the desire to know the truth, can always come up with something that rescues their preferred belief from falsification.

If only the "checking to see whether your ideas reflect reality" part were as fun as the "making up wild stories" part...

Well put, Mike. :) What we can take away from this story is that, if we don't require our hypotheses be testable, people can be infinitely creative in coming up with explanations that swerve and bend as necessary to explain the facts. Any set of facts can be explained in a nearly limitless number of ways. People whose true motivation is the desire to believe, not the desire to know the truth, can always come up with something that rescues their preferred belief from falsification.

]]> By: Christopher http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37364 Christopher Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:23:59 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37364 What can I say - some folks just don't want to admit they've been had, so they invent all manner of convoluted thought patterns to keep themselves from facing the facts... What can I say - some folks just don't want to admit they've been had, so they invent all manner of convoluted thought patterns to keep themselves from facing the facts...

]]> By: Greta Christina http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37358 Greta Christina Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:39:23 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37358 <blockquote>...because of their sins all Jews had been destined to become apostates. This was to have been their punishment. But God had saved his people from this terrible fate by allowing the Messiah to make the supreme sacrifice on their behalf.</blockquote> Wow. I'm actually sort of impressed. The level of contortionism in that concept puts the usual contorted religious apologetics to shame. That's a level of contortionism that could earn you a place in Cirque du Soleil.

...because of their sins all Jews had been destined to become apostates. This was to have been their punishment. But God had saved his people from this terrible fate by allowing the Messiah to make the supreme sacrifice on their behalf.

Wow.

I'm actually sort of impressed.

The level of contortionism in that concept puts the usual contorted religious apologetics to shame. That's a level of contortionism that could earn you a place in Cirque du Soleil.

]]> By: Nightcap http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37357 Nightcap Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:44:13 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37357 One of the arguments for the historicity of Jesus is that the disciples were fervent in their belief, even to the point of martyrdom. The apologists argue that no one would sacrifice himself for a lie. The followers of Sabbatai Zevi (and many others) prove that people certainly will suffer and die for a lie, if they've deceived themselves. After all, oneself is the easiest person to fool. One of the arguments for the historicity of Jesus is that the disciples were fervent in their belief, even to the point of martyrdom. The apologists argue that no one would sacrifice himself for a lie.

The followers of Sabbatai Zevi (and many others) prove that people certainly will suffer and die for a lie, if they've deceived themselves. After all, oneself is the easiest person to fool.

]]> By: velkyn http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37356 velkyn Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:19:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37356 ah, so that's what Sabbateanism is. I had run across the term and neve followed up to see what it was. As you say, it's obvious that the man was bipolar. My husband is bipolar and when he's off is meds, he certainly thinks he can do anything too . He's also has a very high IQ but they sure don't always come together. It seems that humans will always create a "reason" why they weren't wrong and that their "messiah" really was one. Wasn't there another relatively recent Jewish "Messiah" that inconveniently died? and I agree with Polly, if you make the claim, you get to face the archers! It's only fair. :) ah, so that's what Sabbateanism is. I had run across the term and neve followed up to see what it was. As you say, it's obvious that the man was bipolar. My husband is bipolar and when he's off is meds, he certainly thinks he can do anything too . He's also has a very high IQ but they sure don't always come together.

It seems that humans will always create a "reason" why they weren't wrong and that their "messiah" really was one. Wasn't there another relatively recent Jewish "Messiah" that inconveniently died?

and I agree with Polly, if you make the claim, you get to face the archers! It's only fair. :)

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37354 Polly Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:29:21 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37354 People often do accord the mentally ill with higher intelligence or special abilities. I've seen it up-close. I know a (possibly) schizophrenic guy who has to take medication to remain even quasi-normal (NO, it's not me...really). His family always attributed some kind of diabolical intelligence to him, but I found him to be quite average and maybe even a little below average intelligence. <blockquote>prove his messiahship in a trial by ordeal, where archers would fire arrows at him and the court would observe whether God protected him.</blockquote> This has the makings of some badly needed legislation regarding would-be messiahs, prophets, and faith-healers. Just my opinion :) People often do accord the mentally ill with higher intelligence or special abilities. I've seen it up-close. I know a (possibly) schizophrenic guy who has to take medication to remain even quasi-normal (NO, it's not me...really). His family always attributed some kind of diabolical intelligence to him, but I found him to be quite average and maybe even a little below average intelligence.

prove his messiahship in a trial by ordeal, where archers would fire arrows at him and the court would observe whether God protected him.

This has the makings of some badly needed legislation regarding would-be messiahs, prophets, and faith-healers. Just my opinion :)

]]> By: mike http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/07/strange-and-curious-sects-iii.html#comment-37352 mike Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:07:36 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=784#comment-37352 At some point you have to stand in awe of the power of human creativity demonstrated by religious thought. I'd like to think that Zevi would have lost me after his apostasy, but his amazingly clever followers concocted an elaborate story to connect the dots. The belief-preservation instinct is very strong and it serves as a fantastic font of creative ideas. If only the "checking to see whether your ideas reflect reality" part were as fun as the "making up wild stories" part... At some point you have to stand in awe of the power of human creativity demonstrated by religious thought. I'd like to think that Zevi would have lost me after his apostasy, but his amazingly clever followers concocted an elaborate story to connect the dots. The belief-preservation instinct is very strong and it serves as a fantastic font of creative ideas. If only the "checking to see whether your ideas reflect reality" part were as fun as the "making up wild stories" part...

]]>