Comments on: Advice to an Atheist http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:09:52 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Stephen Newport http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38248 Stephen Newport Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:48:33 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38248 I realize my comment is in a long list now, but I didn't see it mentioned. In a very prejudice, religious world, I don't think it is a far stretch to assume that you prioritize knowledge, truth and the betterment of yourself simply by being atheist. This means that it would probably be a value for you to have friends that questioned you and sharpened you. A friendship where you desire that, but your friend doesn't isn't a very good relationship. She will never help you become a better person, and she refuses to listen to something that could help her. You might suggest that good relationships question each other to bring out the best in them. If she is not doing that, I would submit she's not a very good friend. I realize my comment is in a long list now, but I didn't see it mentioned. In a very prejudice, religious world, I don't think it is a far stretch to assume that you prioritize knowledge, truth and the betterment of yourself simply by being atheist. This means that it would probably be a value for you to have friends that questioned you and sharpened you. A friendship where you desire that, but your friend doesn't isn't a very good relationship. She will never help you become a better person, and she refuses to listen to something that could help her.

You might suggest that good relationships question each other to bring out the best in them. If she is not doing that, I would submit she's not a very good friend.

]]> By: Scott Andersen http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38220 Scott Andersen Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:34:51 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38220 Religious affiliation provides a sense of identity. Having been brought up in a religious tradition, breaking from that tradition can be a traumatic experience. Even as one grows older and the faith of their upbringing becomes less incorporated into their life the sense of belonging can remain strong. When tackling a tough situation I like consciously ask myself what it is that I want to achieve. By framing the answer to that question I gain focus and clarity of purpose. From what I can ascertain from our AdviceSeeker’s words, it appears that his/her objective is to remove a barrier in their friendship, that barrier being a closed off section of the life of a dear friend, a prominent portion of the friend’s personhood that cannot be reached by someone deeply desiring to share their self with someone they love. What follows proceeds from that assumption. If the assumption is wrong then the following thoughts are of limited value in the situation. Walls are built out of fear. That which we fear we build walls against to protect us from assault. Anything that is perceived to be an assault will only serve to strengthen the walls. So what does the friend fear? Her religious identity. Remember that those things with which we identify are parts of our personhood; they make a portion of how we know ourselves and our place in the world. Even if a given identity has no rational base or remains uncontemplated, it remains a part of how we know ourselves. The problem in such a case is that contemplation of the identity risks exposure of that identity to assault from within. When it comes to identity, we fear to look at that which we fear we might reject because it opens the door to questioning all the things with which we identify. In so doing we risk what is, to some, the unriskable; the collapse of our existing identity. It is dangerous ground. The solution? I can think of only one thing: identity substitution. It psychologically much easier to adopt a new identity element than question an existing one. Indeed, incorporating new identity elements is one of the ways in which we grow and mature. And once incorporated, if a newly adopted identity element happens to supersede an older one it can be relatively easy to jettison the no-longer-needed identity. No one can make an offering of a new identity element to another. We talking about the self here and only the self can locate and accept a new element. All a loving friend can do is promote exposure to new identity elements and leave the loved one to adopt or not as they deem desirable. Keep in mind that identity substitution requires that the new element provide everything important to the individual that the old element contained and that it is exceedingly difficult for an observer to know what those things might be. And so, after all that long-winded analysis coming from a mind that is simply striving to see what it can in the situation we come to basically the same conclusion that Ebonmuse provided at the beginning: exposure to other belief systems. Religious affiliation provides a sense of identity. Having been brought up in a religious tradition, breaking from that tradition can be a traumatic experience. Even as one grows older and the faith of their upbringing becomes less incorporated into their life the sense of belonging can remain strong.

When tackling a tough situation I like consciously ask myself what it is that I want to achieve. By framing the answer to that question I gain focus and clarity of purpose. From what I can ascertain from our AdviceSeeker’s words, it appears that his/her objective is to remove a barrier in their friendship, that barrier being a closed off section of the life of a dear friend, a prominent portion of the friend’s personhood that cannot be reached by someone deeply desiring to share their self with someone they love. What follows proceeds from that assumption. If the assumption is wrong then the following thoughts are of limited value in the situation.

Walls are built out of fear. That which we fear we build walls against to protect us from assault. Anything that is perceived to be an assault will only serve to strengthen the walls.

So what does the friend fear? Her religious identity. Remember that those things with which we identify are parts of our personhood; they make a portion of how we know ourselves and our place in the world. Even if a given identity has no rational base or remains uncontemplated, it remains a part of how we know ourselves. The problem in such a case is that contemplation of the identity risks exposure of that identity to assault from within. When it comes to identity, we fear to look at that which we fear we might reject because it opens the door to questioning all the things with which we identify. In so doing we risk what is, to some, the unriskable; the collapse of our existing identity. It is dangerous ground.

The solution?

I can think of only one thing: identity substitution. It psychologically much easier to adopt a new identity element than question an existing one. Indeed, incorporating new identity elements is one of the ways in which we grow and mature. And once incorporated, if a newly adopted identity element happens to supersede an older one it can be relatively easy to jettison the no-longer-needed identity.

No one can make an offering of a new identity element to another. We talking about the self here and only the self can locate and accept a new element. All a loving friend can do is promote exposure to new identity elements and leave the loved one to adopt or not as they deem desirable. Keep in mind that identity substitution requires that the new element provide everything important to the individual that the old element contained and that it is exceedingly difficult for an observer to know what those things might be.

And so, after all that long-winded analysis coming from a mind that is simply striving to see what it can in the situation we come to basically the same conclusion that Ebonmuse provided at the beginning: exposure to other belief systems.

]]> By: alnitak http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38132 alnitak Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:34:20 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38132 The method of distraction by discussing another faith has worked for me. My devout sister was happy to heap scorn on the Mormon faith. Much later on, I gently pointed out the similarities between her blind faith and belief in the Angel Moroni. Lots of real discussion followed. The method of distraction by discussing another faith has worked for me. My devout sister was happy to heap scorn on the Mormon faith. Much later on, I gently pointed out the similarities between her blind faith and belief in the Angel Moroni. Lots of real discussion followed.

]]> By: merkur http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38096 merkur Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:45:18 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38096 <i>At the same time, I'm deeply bothered by the fact that such a highly intelligent person has absolutely no interest in even examining her own beliefs and deciding on something beyond blind conviction.</i> That's your problem, not hers. Drop the subject, or (if it bothers you that much) drop the friendship. At the same time, I'm deeply bothered by the fact that such a highly intelligent person has absolutely no interest in even examining her own beliefs and deciding on something beyond blind conviction.

That's your problem, not hers. Drop the subject, or (if it bothers you that much) drop the friendship.

]]> By: Valhar2000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38095 Valhar2000 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:18:24 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38095 Bob: one of the many reasons I really don't think I could ever date a theist. It would be a possibly small, but constant and unrelenting source of annoyance, and I can get all the annoyance I need from other sources. Bob: one of the many reasons I really don't think I could ever date a theist. It would be a possibly small, but constant and unrelenting source of annoyance, and I can get all the annoyance I need from other sources.

]]> By: Valhar2000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38094 Valhar2000 Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:05:54 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38094 Lyra: you were playing with a significant advantage! It is not for nothin that we spaniards have the saying: "Pueden más dos tetas que dos carretas" Lyra: you were playing with a significant advantage! It is not for nothin that we spaniards have the saying: "Pueden más dos tetas que dos carretas"

]]> By: bob http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38063 bob Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:17:50 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38063 Some have said that the atheist should probably just keep his mouth closed on the subject, unless of course, the friend brings it up. I have been dating my girlfriend for over three years. She is a Christian who attends church almost every Sunday. She gives at least 10% of her income to the church. She is a hard working woman approaching middle age with a limited income not even approaching middle class. We have discussed the situation on a few occasions-her spending every Sunday in church when we could go do something fun, and her giving so much of her sparse income to the church when she should be investing for retirement. We love each other, but it is the proverbial brick wall when it comes to her religious practices. Her faith has no affect on me, but it is her practice of her faith. If she just believed in God, heaven, hell, I couldn't care less, but when I see her faith robing her of her time (our time together) and her money, I do speak up every now and then. But, the conversation never ends well. Some have said that the atheist should probably just keep his mouth closed on the subject, unless of course, the friend brings it up.
I have been dating my girlfriend for over three years. She is a Christian who attends church almost every Sunday. She gives at least 10% of her income to the church. She is a hard working woman approaching middle age with a limited income not even approaching middle class.
We have discussed the situation on a few occasions-her spending every Sunday in church when we could go do something fun, and her giving so much of her sparse income to the church when she should be investing for retirement.
We love each other, but it is the proverbial brick wall when it comes to her religious practices. Her faith has no affect on me, but it is her practice of her faith. If she just believed in God, heaven, hell, I couldn't care less, but when I see her faith robing her of her time (our time together) and her money, I do speak up every now and then. But, the conversation never ends well.

]]> By: velkyn http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38059 velkyn Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:53:12 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38059 sounds like the "friend" is just another middle aged person who is suddenly scared of death and wants one foot in the pearly gates, no matter what. sounds like the "friend" is just another middle aged person who is suddenly scared of death and wants one foot in the pearly gates, no matter what.

]]> By: Bijibaboom http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38051 Bijibaboom Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:57:48 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38051 I'm having the same experience right now with my best friend. I find the hard part is STARTING the discussion about faith.Once you get past that initial few sentences of awkwardness,then you're on a roll.To start the discussion,I used the method mentioned earlier of bringing up other faiths first then finding an opportunity to naturally divert the topic to his own faith.Another method would be stating an interesting (and established!)scientific fact that contradicts his religious teachings to invoke his interest.However,it's still pretty hard to get rid of the awkwardness and I find myself on my toes most of the time to avoid offending him.He's aware of my discomfort and that makes him uncomfortable too,increasing awkwardness. Another frustration: Sometimes, even when he faces up to and acknowledge all the evidences against his faith, he just won't reconsider his position.He's 14 and his parents are Christians,so I guess the social impact of denouncing his faith is too great for him to seriously consider doing it. I do "win" all our arguments, but even when he knows that there are problems with his faith, he just choses to ignore them,probably due to all the brainwashing of not questioning the Bible. The bright side is that he's open to scientific evidences, unlike many fundamentalists. I'm having the same experience right now with my best friend. I find the hard part is STARTING the discussion about faith.Once you get past that initial few sentences of awkwardness,then you're on a roll.To start the discussion,I used the method mentioned earlier of bringing up other faiths first then finding an opportunity to naturally divert the topic to his own faith.Another method would be stating an interesting (and established!)scientific fact that contradicts his religious teachings to invoke his interest.However,it's still pretty hard to get rid of the awkwardness and I find myself on my toes most of the time to avoid offending him.He's aware of my discomfort and that makes him uncomfortable too,increasing awkwardness.
Another frustration: Sometimes, even when he faces up to and acknowledge all the evidences against his faith, he just won't reconsider his position.He's 14 and his parents are Christians,so I guess the social impact of denouncing his faith is too great for him to seriously consider doing it. I do "win" all our arguments, but even when he knows that there are problems with his faith, he just choses to ignore them,probably due to all the brainwashing of not questioning the Bible.
The bright side is that he's open to scientific evidences, unlike many fundamentalists.

]]> By: Alex Dino http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38031 Alex Dino Tue, 26 Aug 2008 03:22:28 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38031 I have a similar situation, although the other party is my mother. Unfortunately, I was forced to drop the subject although, even after several years of intense (yet respectful) debates. As a former Catholic myself, my mother was unable to understand how I "lost faith." Even though I am quite confident that she questions and even doubts her own faith, I think that she needs it to live a fulfilling and hopeful life, thus I forced myself to avoid such conversations. I have a similar situation, although the other party is my mother. Unfortunately, I was forced to drop the subject although, even after several years of intense (yet respectful) debates. As a former Catholic myself, my mother was unable to understand how I "lost faith." Even though I am quite confident that she questions and even doubts her own faith, I think that she needs it to live a fulfilling and hopeful life, thus I forced myself to avoid such conversations.

]]> By: KShep http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38029 KShep Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:55:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38029 As someone who once attended a NASCAR race, I can say with certainty that it is now a religion in and of itself, with a spiritual leader known as "Earnhardt." :^) As someone who once attended a NASCAR race, I can say with certainty that it is now a religion in and of itself, with a spiritual leader known as "Earnhardt." :^)

]]> By: Mr.Pendent http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/advice-to-an-atheist-2.html#comment-38026 Mr.Pendent Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:50:44 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=813#comment-38026 <b>I</b> agree with you, Jim. Completely. I'm all for facing theists head-on and arguing their faith down to a nub. But the question posed was about specifically avoiding that scenario. To say that since the religion is wrong it deserves less respect than a hobby (less than NASCAR?) is all fine, but is no more helpful to the person seeking help dealing with her theist friend than the unhelpful "get different friends" above. Also, my point was simply that if she would not filter her comments about NASCAR, then she shouldn't filter them about religion. If she <b>would</b> avoid saying things about NASCAR (or ping-pong, or any other hobby) to her friend, then she should do the same in this case. I agree with you, Jim. Completely. I'm all for facing theists head-on and arguing their faith down to a nub.

But the question posed was about specifically avoiding that scenario. To say that since the religion is wrong it deserves less respect than a hobby (less than NASCAR?) is all fine, but is no more helpful to the person seeking help dealing with her theist friend than the unhelpful "get different friends" above.

Also, my point was simply that if she would not filter her comments about NASCAR, then she shouldn't filter them about religion. If she would avoid saying things about NASCAR (or ping-pong, or any other hobby) to her friend, then she should do the same in this case.

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