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	<title>Comments on: Run Your Car on Water! (No, Not Really)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Jerry Lyons</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-43380</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-43380</guid>
		<description>What this all boils down to is essentially the possibility of disproving Faraday&#039;s rule. Now can we or can&#039;t we. Elequence means jack without logical acceptance of a proof. Now get off the blooming fence fellas!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What this all boils down to is essentially the possibility of disproving Faraday's rule. Now can we or can't we. Elequence means jack without logical acceptance of a proof. Now get off the blooming fence fellas!</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-42864</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-42864</guid>
		<description>Oh, as for hydrogen injection, there&#039;s an effort that isn&#039;t based on water going on at MIT at the moment. The device, called a plasmatron, uses a vapour arc discharge to crack some of the petrol in a motor vehicle into simpler molecules, including hydrogen, which is then injected into the engine with the rest of the petrol and apparently increases the overall combustion efficiency of the mixture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, as for hydrogen injection, there's an effort that isn't based on water going on at MIT at the moment. The device, called a plasmatron, uses a vapour arc discharge to crack some of the petrol in a motor vehicle into simpler molecules, including hydrogen, which is then injected into the engine with the rest of the petrol and apparently increases the overall combustion efficiency of the mixture.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-42863</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-42863</guid>
		<description>&lt;q&gt;Are you sure &quot;Brown&#039;s gas&quot; isn&#039;t just steam?&lt;/q&gt;

As far as I can tell from the invariably semi-coherent websites that champion junk/scam/conspiracy science like this, &quot;Brown&#039;s gas&quot; is what you get when you electrolyse water and don&#039;t separate the gases evolved from the cathode and anode.  What you get is not a single gas, but a mixture of two gases, H2 and O2, the normal forms of gaseous hydrogen and gaseous oxygen; moreover, the mixture of these two gases will conveniently be perfectly stochiometric.  And you couldn&#039;t get me to stand anywhere near any sizeable tank of such a mixture, because another name for any container of fully mixed, stochiometric dihydrogen and dioxygen is a &lt;i&gt; fuel-air bomb.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><q>Are you sure "Brown's gas" isn't just steam?</q></p>
<p>As far as I can tell from the invariably semi-coherent websites that champion junk/scam/conspiracy science like this, "Brown's gas" is what you get when you electrolyse water and don't separate the gases evolved from the cathode and anode.  What you get is not a single gas, but a mixture of two gases, H2 and O2, the normal forms of gaseous hydrogen and gaseous oxygen; moreover, the mixture of these two gases will conveniently be perfectly stochiometric.  And you couldn't get me to stand anywhere near any sizeable tank of such a mixture, because another name for any container of fully mixed, stochiometric dihydrogen and dioxygen is a <i> fuel-air bomb.</i></p>
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		<title>By: bestonnet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-40950</link>
		<dc:creator>bestonnet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-40950</guid>
		<description>Biofuels have other problems, like the fact that the crops we grow should be used as food for humans, not SUV&#039;s.

Cooking oil if only a few people do it isn&#039;t going to cause major problems but if everyone started to use biofuels we&#039;d be in quite a bit of trouble (this ethanol crap has already caused food price increases), not to mention that you only really save money with cooking oil if you don&#039;t pay taxes on your fuel and that if a lot of people start doing it they tend to get fined for tax evasion (has been known to happen).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Biofuels have other problems, like the fact that the crops we grow should be used as food for humans, not SUV's.</p>
<p>Cooking oil if only a few people do it isn't going to cause major problems but if everyone started to use biofuels we'd be in quite a bit of trouble (this ethanol crap has already caused food price increases), not to mention that you only really save money with cooking oil if you don't pay taxes on your fuel and that if a lot of people start doing it they tend to get fined for tax evasion (has been known to happen).</p>
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		<title>By: andim</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-40914</link>
		<dc:creator>andim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-40914</guid>
		<description>Pah! - Water is so passe now. Im with these guys (http://www.fatfinding.com) - cooking oil is the future! - The days of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www/atlanticeg.co.uk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cheap gas and electricity&lt;/a&gt; are long gone.........</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pah! - Water is so passe now. Im with these guys (<a href="http://www.fatfinding.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.fatfinding.com</a>) - cooking oil is the future! - The days of <a href="http://www/atlanticeg.co.uk" rel="nofollow">cheap gas and electricity</a> are long gone.........</p>
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		<title>By: Chase Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-37920</link>
		<dc:creator>Chase Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-37920</guid>
		<description>Yup, it&#039;s illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup, it's illegal.</p>
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		<title>By: bestonnet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-37915</link>
		<dc:creator>bestonnet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-37915</guid>
		<description>Chase Johnson:&lt;blockquote&gt;bestonnet: The people I know who are experimenting with hydrogen injection do not, generally, keep catalytic converters on their cars.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Which is most likely illegal (and for good reason).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chase Johnson:<br />
<blockquote>bestonnet: The people I know who are experimenting with hydrogen injection do not, generally, keep catalytic converters on their cars.</p></blockquote>
<p>Which is most likely illegal (and for good reason).</p>
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		<title>By: Chase Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-37907</link>
		<dc:creator>Chase Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-37907</guid>
		<description>Ebon: Fair enough. My mistake for mis-interpreting your post. I have recently read debates on an automotive forum I frequent regarding hydrogen injection (using electrolysis as the hydrogen source) to do exactly what bestonnet describes. These are people who are quite willing to do all the necessary ECU programming and dyno tuning, and they could not come to agreement about the efficacy of hydrogen injection. I suppose it galled me to see (what I thought was) a massive simplification and dismissal of the issue. I apologize.

bestonnet: The people I know who are experimenting with hydrogen injection do not, generally, keep catalytic converters on their cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebon: Fair enough. My mistake for mis-interpreting your post. I have recently read debates on an automotive forum I frequent regarding hydrogen injection (using electrolysis as the hydrogen source) to do exactly what bestonnet describes. These are people who are quite willing to do all the necessary ECU programming and dyno tuning, and they could not come to agreement about the efficacy of hydrogen injection. I suppose it galled me to see (what I thought was) a massive simplification and dismissal of the issue. I apologize.</p>
<p>bestonnet: The people I know who are experimenting with hydrogen injection do not, generally, keep catalytic converters on their cars.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-37903</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-37903</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Lean burn itself can also provide some fuel economy increase but is banned because of a conspiracy, actually because it increases NOx emissions massively compared to a car with a catalytic converter (that requires a roughly stoichiometric mixture to work) and which is quite justified.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Especially since C-SCR doesn&#039;t work too well with the sort of model passenger cars are sold on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Lean burn itself can also provide some fuel economy increase but is banned because of a conspiracy, actually because it increases NOx emissions massively compared to a car with a catalytic converter (that requires a roughly stoichiometric mixture to work) and which is quite justified.</p></blockquote>
<p>Especially since C-SCR doesn't work too well with the sort of model passenger cars are sold on.</p>
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		<title>By: bestonnet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-37895</link>
		<dc:creator>bestonnet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-37895</guid>
		<description>In theory hydrogen could allow for an increase in compression ratio and leaner combustion which could give you some improvements if you specifically tune the engine for them (which they aren&#039;t doing, this would require at the very least significant reprogramming of the ECU and possibly even hardware changes).

Lean burn itself can also provide some fuel economy increase but is banned because of a conspiracy, actually because it increases NOx emissions massively compared to a car with a catalytic converter (that requires a roughly stoichiometric mixture to work) and which is quite justified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In theory hydrogen could allow for an increase in compression ratio and leaner combustion which could give you some improvements if you specifically tune the engine for them (which they aren't doing, this would require at the very least significant reprogramming of the ECU and possibly even hardware changes).</p>
<p>Lean burn itself can also provide some fuel economy increase but is banned because of a conspiracy, actually because it increases NOx emissions massively compared to a car with a catalytic converter (that requires a roughly stoichiometric mixture to work) and which is quite justified.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-37873</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-37873</guid>
		<description>Chase: I admit I&#039;m not an expert on the intricacies of internal-combustion engines, but what you&#039;re describing is a completely different system than what&#039;s being sold here. This website isn&#039;t promoting water injection to increase the fuel&#039;s octane rating, or hydrogen injection to increase the percentage of fuel that&#039;s burned. On the contrary, what it clearly advocates is electrolyzing water and using the resulting oxyhydrogen gas as a fuel source in its own right to &lt;i&gt;replace&lt;/i&gt; gasoline. There are fundamental thermodynamic reasons why this can&#039;t possibly work.

I can see the systems you describe, if finely tuned, producing a small increase in gas mileage. This site is not offering a small increase. It promises to double your gas mileage. You are not going to get a change like that from a minor adjustment in combustion efficiency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chase: I admit I'm not an expert on the intricacies of internal-combustion engines, but what you're describing is a completely different system than what's being sold here. This website isn't promoting water injection to increase the fuel's octane rating, or hydrogen injection to increase the percentage of fuel that's burned. On the contrary, what it clearly advocates is electrolyzing water and using the resulting oxyhydrogen gas as a fuel source in its own right to <i>replace</i> gasoline. There are fundamental thermodynamic reasons why this can't possibly work.</p>
<p>I can see the systems you describe, if finely tuned, producing a small increase in gas mileage. This site is not offering a small increase. It promises to double your gas mileage. You are not going to get a change like that from a minor adjustment in combustion efficiency.</p>
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		<title>By: Chase Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/08/run-your-car-on-water.html#comment-37862</link>
		<dc:creator>Chase Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=805#comment-37862</guid>
		<description>bestonnet:

There isn&#039;t *much* room for improvement, but that doesn&#039;t mean there isn&#039;t room for it.

I&#039;m not saying these claims are true, and I&#039;m not saying they&#039;re false. What I actually take issue with is the dismissal of claims using simplistic models. Without experimental evidence one way or the other, I would expect to see a detailed characterization of the combustion process demonstrating the inefficacy of hydrogen injection. I have not seen anything close to that. I have seen a bunch of thrashing about with a vague, non-specific model. Its pop science, not a debunking. As a skeptic, I take nearly as much issue with inaccurate pop science as I do with psychics and telekinesis. 

The linked site and its relatives in that market (Make your car run faster/better/cheaper with this cheap kit) do seem quite sleazy. People tend to use secondary indicators of legitimacy and competence when they themselves lack the competence to judge a scientific claim. That is what is occurring here, I believe. Whether or not an electrolysis-based hydrogen injection system increases fuel mileage, the sleaziness of the marketing has no impact on the science.

It works, or it doesn&#039;t, and arguing with broad applications of thermodynamic principles, when what you really need is a detailed combustion analysis, is pointless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bestonnet:</p>
<p>There isn't *much* room for improvement, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for it.</p>
<p>I'm not saying these claims are true, and I'm not saying they're false. What I actually take issue with is the dismissal of claims using simplistic models. Without experimental evidence one way or the other, I would expect to see a detailed characterization of the combustion process demonstrating the inefficacy of hydrogen injection. I have not seen anything close to that. I have seen a bunch of thrashing about with a vague, non-specific model. Its pop science, not a debunking. As a skeptic, I take nearly as much issue with inaccurate pop science as I do with psychics and telekinesis. </p>
<p>The linked site and its relatives in that market (Make your car run faster/better/cheaper with this cheap kit) do seem quite sleazy. People tend to use secondary indicators of legitimacy and competence when they themselves lack the competence to judge a scientific claim. That is what is occurring here, I believe. Whether or not an electrolysis-based hydrogen injection system increases fuel mileage, the sleaziness of the marketing has no impact on the science.</p>
<p>It works, or it doesn't, and arguing with broad applications of thermodynamic principles, when what you really need is a detailed combustion analysis, is pointless.</p>
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