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On Expertise

One of the most common complaints leveled against Richard Dawkins (and other atheist writers) is that his understanding of religion isn't sufficiently sophisticated - that he dismisses religion without delving into all its intricacies of doctrine. For instance, Terry Eagleton:

What, one wonders, are Dawkins's views on the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus? Has he read Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope? Has he even heard of them?

What any of this has to do with the basic question of whether God exists is left unexplained. So common is this attack that P.Z. Myers gave it its own, very appropriate name - The Courtier's Reply - a reference to the famous fable of the Emperor's New Clothes. The analogy behind the Courtier's Reply is that no one has the right to claim the Emperor is naked unless they've first engaged in a detailed study of all the latest fashions in imaginary fabrics.

The use of this argument shows how religious apologists set the bar at a different height for atheists than they do for their own fellow believers. Why is it that that atheists are expected to be fluent in every last detail and nuance of theology, while no similar qualifications are needed to be a churchgoer?

Millions of theists pray, worship and attend church each week despite possessing pathetically shallow levels of knowledge and familiarity with their own religion. If atheists criticized Christianity despite possessing such shoddy knowledge of its teachings, they'd be lambasted - and rightly so. But no one seems to be demanding that the ill-informed faithful clear out of the pews until they've brought their theological knowledge up to code.

In fact, some of the world's major religions have commitment ceremonies where children as young as 12 or 13 are expected to pledge their lifelong devotion. Clearly, these faiths believe that even a child can understand their teachings well enough to make a meaningful vow of allegiance to them. How, then, can those same faiths turn around and say that atheists need to have a postgraduate education in theology to even think about objecting? This is just an attempt to create a double standard where detailed understanding is required to deny, but not to assent.

If anything, this is a bar that's not just uneven, it's perpetually moving. A lifetime of study would not be enough to learn every last detail about even a single religion. No one, atheist or theologian, could possibly know everything about the history and culture of a large faith. And again, while this is not viewed as a liability in believers, it serves as a convenient cudgel for apologists to use against us. When challenged, they can always demand that the atheist go away and study another long-dead theologian before questioning the existence of God.

But as Eagleton's excerpt shows, this is just a smokescreen. It rarely if ever has any bearing on the key question of whether theism is true. If God does not exist, of what possible relevance is the epistemological difference between Aquinas and Duns Scotus? We seek to respond to religious beliefs as they are actually held and practiced by a vast majority of the faithful, not to the rarefied views held by a tiny minority of theologians. We have no interest in debating how many angels can dance on a pinhead; we want to know whether there's any reason to believe in angels in the first place.

And, it should be noted, this argument is almost never applied in the reverse direction. That is to say, most of the believers who reject atheism know little, if anything, about it, and I'd bet that only a vanishing minority have ever read anything written by us in our own words. Greta Christina, as always, shines a clear light on the double standard being applied here. If we're expected to possess expertise on theism, why aren't theists expected to read up on atheism before rejecting it? Why aren't they expected to be experts on all the other faiths which they don't belong to?

September 29, 2008, 8:39 am • Posted in: The LibraryCommentOptions

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166 Comments

I love that term "the courtier's reply"! This "argument" reminds me of the other one that theists use e.g. "you must look under every rock in the universe to prove that there is no God". Don't know if there's a spiffy name for that one yet or not :) Neither are arguments at all. They just try to delay the inevitable.

Why aren't they expected to be experts on all the other faiths which they don't belong to?

I think this is a pretty good rule of thumb for dealing with theists -- substitute their religion of choice by another religion in their own logic. It's not always effective, but at least has the possibility of moving someone beyond the "either no god or the Christian God" false dilemma. It's also the reason the Flying Spaghetti Monster revealed himself to us, praise be unto him.

Mike, don't you mean the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Peace Be Upon Her, May Her Hooves Never Be Shod!?

Hooray!!! How refreshing to read a post that addresses the essential issue. I am tired of reading ad nauseam, tirades about arcane points of doctrinal interpretation, which are all rendered moot when faced with the patent absurdity of the basic suppostion of the "prime mover", the "divine creator", and the "God who works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform" concept.

Velkyn: I think the term you're looking for is "God of the Gaps".

Well, Terry Eagleton's piece certainly answers the question of whether the 'Courtier's Reply' is always a straw man. It's perfectly reasonable to remark in a review that Dawkins, when he criticises specific points of theology, occasionally gets them wrong, and I'm equally sympathetic to more self-questioning liberal theists who, after reading 'The God Delusion', remark that they would have appreciated a more thorough testing of their own views. However, making a lack of sophisticated theological knowledge your first major point, central to the whole first half of your reaction, really does border on the ridiculous. Oddly, he does finally get to the point after lots and lots of theological fluff:

Now it may well be that all this is no more plausible than the tooth fairy.

Yes, Mr. Eagleton, this is the point that we are interested in. I regret to say that Eagleton does not go on to examine this point more closely, preferring to argue that his theological fluff, even if it is no more plausible than the tooth fairy, is still 'worthy of respect'.

To be as fair to Eagleton as he is to Dawkins, however, I will state (in a short statement at the end of my criticism) that he is at least capable of absorbing some of Dawkins' points, and he'd probably be quite fun to argue with. I'd be very interested to see Eagleton's response to this piece. Would he agree that children are not capable of committing themselves to a religion? By tying this idea to the 'sophisticated theological' viewpoint, Ebonmuse, I think you might have made a better case for it (from the viewpoint of a 'sophisticated theological' theist) than Dawkins has.

You make excellent points as always. I'm lucky. Not that I have a lot of conversations with theists, but I have a degree in Catholic theology. That was what drove me to atheism, ironically. I completely agree that the "finer" points of theology are irrelevant, but sadly, I can believe that it will continue to be used. Theists, of course, are grasping at straws.

I suppose the response to this would be that by not looking into the relevant theology, atheists are being scoffish and dismissive, and deliberately ignore significant information. This still leaves the very good point, however, that most religion only puts up high bar when it comes to denying religion, and not to accepting it. This double standard exists independent of whether or not there is a reasonable argument for believing in God somewhere in the theological literature.

There is no double standard. It is not any old atheists who are criticized for not knowing enough about theological argument. It is only atheists who write 400 page books claiming to show things like "God almost certainly does not exist." The same standard should be applied to theists writing 400 page books claiming to prove things like "God does indeed exist." Ordinary atheists can have their beliefs without having any reasons for them at all, or for whatever reasons they like -- Eagleton isn't criticizing them.

As to the courtier's reply: I have yet to see an atheist respond to this excellent little post: http://andrewrilstone.blogspot.com/2007/09/everything-you-never-wanted-to-know.html

I think it is a sign of lack of confidence on the part of believers to demand such standards from us. If a belief is true and easy to defend, it should not be necessary to set up such an unfair standard. Scientific theories have the concept of falsifiability; it would not require omniscience to disprove them, just evidence in contrast to the current understanding. Any honest search for truth needs to be set up that way. And, it just so happens that atheism is a position with that feature. If, in the unlikely event that God ended world hunger with some sort of miracle, how could we need a higher standard of evidence?

Yes, do they know whether the teapot is Dresden or Meissen?

Michael Kremer: I believe the comments by Gareth McCaughan in the comment thread of the post you cited already more than satisfactorily answer the arguments raised there.

The statement regarding "children as young as 12 or 13" is presumably correct for some denominations or perhaps even most, but the typical age of the First Communion for children of Catholic parents is typically 7 or 8 because that is deemed to be the usual "age of reason." See for example:

http://www.home.newadvent.org/cathen/01209a.htm

"In fact, some of the world's major religions have commitment ceremonies where children as young as 12 or 13 are expected to pledge their lifelong devotion. Clearly, these faiths believe that even a child can understand their teachings well enough to make a meaningful vow of allegiance to them. How, then, can those same faiths turn around and say that atheists need to have a postgraduate education in theology to even think about objecting? This is just an attempt to create a double standard where detailed understanding is required to deny, but not to assent."

That is an excellent point I never considered. It would probably be lost on many who believe that the faith of a child is a desirable trait. Maybe someday people won't have to wait so many years after religious indoctrination, as I have, to be able to think more clearly. Keep up the good posts!

Why in the world would I be expected to study in detail a foolish idea that has been proven time and time again to be improbable? No amazing amount of wordcrafting is going to change the probability that god is a delusion. Western society owes so much to Greek culture and yet we dismiss their gods as superstition while we worship the god of a bunch of desert Bedouins who could barely rub two sticks together to make fire.

Kremer seems to be embracing the "agnostic is it own category" and "why don't you be quiet" beliefs. I ask for a master in daylight foo to link the rebuttals.

I have no problem with the person who says: "Since I think that there is no God, there is no point in discussing what Christians say about him."

However, if a person says "One of the reasons that I think there is no God is that what Christians say about him is silly / illogical / perverted / child molesty" I would expect him to have a reasonably sophisticated understanding of Christian belief.

This is particularly true if they propose to put their arguments in a book and charge me money for it.

Andrew Rilstone

Andrew,

What are some specific examples of things Dawkins says about Christian theology that you believe are inaccurate?

Thanks, paradoctor. "God of the Gaps" iss exactly what I wanted :)

"However, if a person says "One of the reasons that I think there is no God is that what Christians say about him is silly / illogical / perverted / child molesty" I would expect him to have a reasonably sophisticated understanding of Christian belief. "

Exactly what *is* a "reasonable sophisticated understanding of Christian belief"? Being that I have read the Bible and various apologetics, I have *been* a Christian, etc, I would think I would meet the criteria. However, I have found that when a Christian says the above, they really mean "understand and believe Christianity the exact same as me".

I was required to take numerous theology classes in college. Because of those courses, I don't consider it a requisite for an atheist to be well-versed in theology in order to criticize religion for one simple reason:

All theology is based on the presupposition that God exists.

So, Ebon, you're spot-on once again when you write:

If God does not exist, of what possible relevance is the epistemological difference between Aquinas and Duns Scotus?...We have no interest in debating how many angels can dance on a pinhead; we want to know whether there's any reason to believe in angels in the first place.

I once had it out with a theology student who had memorized of Aquinas' writings. He sat there attempting to show the ironclad relationship between the "Esse" and the "Essence," or whatever, and all the while I'm trying to point out to him that the entire argument falls apart if the pre-Council of Trent, Catholic Christian God does not exist.

All theology, instead of providing convincing evidence for the existence of a god, attempts to explain other phenomena within the context of that god (and for religions without a comprehensive holy text, I'm not sure how they go about doing this). The whole thing is one big house of cards.

Though people like Dawkins may be intransigent at times, the question still remains: why should we have to be well-versed in a subject that can't even survive basic skeptical scrutiny?

Theology in a nutshell: presuppose that something we may be able to call a "god" exists, then start explaining as many physical and social phenomena as possible using that presupposition.

I wonder if anyone will develop a corresponding study to compete with it - like Satanology!

I think a similar analogy would be any ongoing debates in biology about HOW evolution occured or how it yielded a specific organism. Explaining this to a creationist would evoke the exact same reaction: "I don't believe in evolution, what do I care about the different evolutionary hypotheses?!?"

I guess the theist response to your comment, Jeff T, would be that you should study some amount of theology / apologetics before you conclude that God is improbable in the first place. Likewise (Ingersoll's Revenge): your disagreement with the theist would be in whether it survives "basic" scrutiny. Velkyn, I think your experience is shared. The double standard is obvious.

A feature of this double standard, I think, can be seen in two bipartite definitions of "faith." One version holds that we must make assumptions about the universe, like that we have brains in our heads even if we haven't seen them. Another version of faith is the blind type that skeptics disdain - the same type employed in both cults and child indoctrination. Then, some religious authorities transparently equate the two when criticizing skepticism.

I'm a little frustrated when anti-evolutionists use that card. Whenever they speak of the first life, or of competing evolutionary hypotheses, I think of this allegory: Imagine you are flying over the desert, and you see a man walking. There is no water for miles, so you wonder how he could be walking in he desert. Also, you search his footprints back as far as you can, and you see it ends (or begins) around a few dunehills. However the man managed to get to that place, it does not change the fact the man was walking in the desert to get to where he is now.

Re: Polly's creationism example.

In either case evolution or theology, there is no point in going into great detail about the advanced matters before the existence of the subject matter is established.

If one is talking to someone who has only heard the creationist side of things, but who is sufficiently intellectually honest to want to hear the other side, one can point to such things as the similarities in tetrapod skeletons indicating that eg: frogs birds & humans are all modifications of an ancestral design. Etc. Etc. Etc.

If one is a theist talking to an atheist about theology, what can one point to, to indicate the subject matter even exists?

Explaining this to a creationist would evoke the exact same reaction: "I don't believe in evolution, what do I care about the different evolutionary hypotheses?!?"

Look, if someone refuses to give the creationist any reason why evolution makes sense, and instead starts "oh, but have you read Darwin on the origin of species and Huxley on human fossils? What are your views on the differences between gradualism and punctuated equilibrium? What do you think about Woese's views on the structure of the tree of life?" - the creationist would be right to think that this person is an evasive ass.

I think it would be acceptable to say to a creationist "You don't seem to understand genetics, please go read a basic textbook on evolution."

If the creationist has written a book attacking evolution, it would be better to point to specific errors the creationist has made, and not just scoff "well, he obviously hasn't read so-and-so!"

Another bad answer would be "It's useless to talk to you unless you've read Gould's Structure of Evolutionary Theory. Never mind that it's 1,400 pages, and that most biologists haven't read it either, and I can't tell you what's so great about it, but just read it and you'll understand."

The conversation between the 'sophisticated' believer and the skeptic is something like this:

"I believe that there are intelligent octapusses living on Mars!"

"Okay, why do you think that? That sound like something of a silly belief, given that there isn't any evidence that there are octapusses on Mars. Sure, there's some evidence that there -might- be bacteria on Mars, but something as complex as an octapus is highly unlikely."

"You're clearly not basing your criticism on a sophisticated understanding of Martian octapus belief. I'm not going to listen to you until you address the more sophisticated claims made by Martian octapus believers."

"What 'sophisticated' claims? Nobody has presented any evidence that there is a single octapus living on Mars. Until somebody does, there is no need to deal with the more detailed claims made by believers in Martian Octapusses, because there is no justification for believing that they exist at all."

"You are clearly ignorant of the nuances Martian Octapus belief. Are you familiar with Dr Tinfoil Treacle's paper on what TV shows intercepted from Earth these octapusses are likely to prefer?"

"No."

"Can you tell me what colour towels are traditionally used in hotels run by Martian octapusses, according to Credule?"

"No."

"Are you familiar with what the seven most popular Martian Octapus sporting events are, according to Lyar's Book of Martian Speculation?"

"No."

"Then how are you qualified to say that Martian Octapusses don't exist? If you don't even know about Martian Octapus tea-cozy fashion trends, then you are clearly far to ignorant about Martian Octapusses to say that they don't exist. How dare you waste my time trying to disprove something you clearly know nothing about!"

Nice post.

I think those who criticize Dawkins and atheism in the vein of Terry Eagleton usually do so hypocritically, and actually display weakness over strength. For example, most believers care not to explain or understand Gould's use of Scilla's coral as a triune metaphoric depiction of evolutionary theory; most believers haven't read Ingersoll or Bertrand Russell; in fact, many (possibly most) believers have never even considered the fact they might be wrong.

Those who concoct Eagleton-esque arguments unnecessarily overshoot the mark, possibly in an overcompensatory attempt to respond to Dawkins under the auspices of intelligent debate. One need not demonstrate Dawkins' ignorance of Aquinas, Duns Scrotus, Rahner, et al. when he (Dawkins) already shows basic ignorance of the Bible.

Genuinely intellectual atheists often know far more about Christianity / Bible / religion than most believers, and genuinely intellectual believers often know far more about skepticism / science / atheism than most skeptics.

I take a bit of a different approach. I went to Dawkins, then Hitchens, then Harris -- or their books at least -- seeking a philosophical and intellectual grounding for my own atheism. I came away intensely dissatisfied. I went to Ravi Zacharias to get a sample of the other side, and also came away dissatisfied.

Part of the problem is that these writers of what amount to pop-culture philosophy aren't terribly interested in sophisticated discussion. To the contrary, my own reading of their work wuggests that tey are more interested in restating their own points at length, but without a real intellectual foundation.

But a second part of the problem is that a theological and philosophical discourse -- I mean, a truly enlightening tome -- would be largely incomprehensible to the wider public, thus selling fewer copies.

Many of you are missing the point. The critique doesn't say you can't disbelieve in something you know nothing about. The critique is that you cannot argue against something you don't understand.

It would be like me encountering someone who tells me NASA has put a man on the moon. I then respond saying NASA does not exist because trained mice in clown suits cannot fly rockets. The reason for my disbelief doesn't address any of the TRUE claims about NASA the person made. It would be valid for me to dispute the possibility of a rocket going into space. It would be valid for me to not believe in rockets, or (without further evidence being provided) for me to choose not to believe a man could operate a rocket. It is absurb, however, for me to argue points about NASA which were never raised in the first place.

This is where a little knowledge of what you are critiquing is absolutely essential. You can choose not to believe whatever you wish until evidence is supplied to 'prove' it. It is another matter entirely to critique something you do not understand.

cl,

...and genuinely intellectual believers often know far more about skepticism / science / atheism than most skeptics.

In my experience, this has not been the case. Do you have any specific people in mind?

OMGF,

Well hell... nice to meet you.

"In my experience, this has not been the case."

Understandable. Everyone's experience differs and I don't know whether I would classify the believers you've experienced as genuine intellectuals or not, so I can't agree or disagree with you on that point.

"Do you have any specific people in mind?"

I don't keep up with theologians, I don't go to church, and I haven't met a believer I would classify as a genuine intellectual in over 3 years now. The last was a guy I worked for named John the Printer.

karatemack,

Many of you are missing the point. The critique doesn't say you can't disbelieve in something you know nothing about. The critique is that you cannot argue against something you don't understand.

In that case, I'll ask you the same question I asked Andrew Rilstone: What are some specific examples of things that Richard Dawkins (or any other prominent new atheist) says about Christian theology that you believe are inaccurate?

What are some specific examples of things Dawkins says about Christian theology that you believe are inaccurate?

Well, off the top of my head. Dawkins claims that "the Bible" is a pro-semitic, racist work - that the book of Revelation says that only Jews go to heaven; and that Jesus thought that "love thy neigbour" only applies to Jews. He says that the infancy gospel of Thomas was left out of the New Testament as a result of an "arbitrary" process, and that it had just as much right to be part of the Bible as the the four canonical texts. He claims that the argument between those who believed in the Holy Trinity and those who denied it was essentially meaningless. He talks about the more blood curdling elements in the Old Testement without any apparent awareness of Christian teaching about the Jewish Law being superceded. He seems to think that all Christians support the "penal substitution" view of the Atonement (that God wanted to punish someone, and the innocent Jesus volunteered). And he still thinks Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews.

But the real problem isn't the errors. If I've understood the book right, he's arguing that our scientific knowledge of evolution proves that story of "creation" in Old Testement isn't true; that it follows that the "God" in that story doesn't exist; and that therefore all other possible versions of God don't exist either. I agree, and have always agreed, with the first part: to make me an atheist, he'd have to demonstrate that the second part follows from it. And that would, I think, require some understanding of "theology" in the sense of "the kind of thing that intelligent theists mean when they say "God."

It is, by the way, perfectly possible to ask meaningful questions about non-existant beings. "What was the name of David Copperfield's wife"; "What planet did Superman come from"; "Do Hobbits have leap years?"

My remark is mainly a rebuttal to the use of The Courtier's Reply in defense of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion". I do not feel as though The Courtier's Reply really addresses the original critique set forth in Dawkins' published material.

That said; Dawkins asserts that religions are all oriented around family and upbringing. The first christians were Jews who denounced their 'family' faiths to follow what was considered at the time to be a radical new teaching. For this reason they were persecuted, not from without, but from within their own community. Also he shows a map, during his presentation, showing where all the people of a certain faith live. This presentation was highly misleading and actually full of error. People of the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faiths are located all over the world.

Dawkins asserts that all religous gods have, in modern times, become anachronisms of the past. Each of these suppossed rulers of the universe now disproven through a consensus among mankind as a whole. I would say his assertion is absolutely correct, and yet I would draw a different conclusion as what Dawkins fails to point out is that the God of the Bible is worshipped during the same period as all of these gods who have now 'ceased to exist'... and yet He remains. Why is this God different? Dawkins, for me, fails to answer this.

Dawkins asserts that "skyhooks" must be put aside in favor of "cranes". Simply because we cannot force God to reveal Himself, He obviously does not exist. In a lecture at Burkeley (which is what I'm responding to, found here: http://richarddawkins.net/article,2989,Richard-Dawkins-Lecture-at-UC-Berkeley,Richard-Dawkins) Dawkins admits that intelligent design would be a plausable explanation if only we could define the source of the creator. I find this reasoning flawed. When I smell freshly cooked apples, I do not have to locate the source of the smell to know that there is something causing the smell.

Dawkins asserts that the probability, as suggested by creationists, for evolution to have occurred through natural selection is looked at through a flawed lense. He states that it's not an all or nothing proposition. He uses the example of the dribbling lock, trying to undermine the essence of the probability argument. What he fails to acknowledge is that the statistical improbability listed (which is 4.9 X 10 -191) applies only to the likelihood that proteins came together in the correct way to form RNA. It isn't applied to the entire evolutionary process, only the intial stage of life. Therefore it is an irreducible minimum which cannot be simplified in the way that Dawkins attempts to.

This is all in the first 20 minutes of Dawkins 56 minute lecture.

I'll take Andrew's comments in order:

Dawkins claims that "the Bible" is a pro-semitic, racist work...

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would seriously deny that.

...that the book of Revelation says that only Jews go to heaven...

That is, in fact, what the Book of Revelation says. This comes from Dawkins discussing the famous verses about the 144,000 witnesses, which, as Revelation points out, consist of twelve thousand people from each of the original 12 tribes of Israel (7:4-8). Dawkins himself does not accept this as gospel, but specifically points out that "some sects", such as the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret these 144,000 witnesses to be the sum total of those who will be saved from the earth.

...and that Jesus thought that "love thy neigbour" only applies to Jews.

Since that is clearly the way it's stated in the original text of the Bible, I fail to see the problem. Here's Leviticus 19:18:

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord."

Note that Dawkins is not, as you imply, pulling this conclusion and the two before it out of thin air. All three of these points, although you didn't give citations for them, come from a section of TGD which discusses a paper by the evolutionary anthropologist John Hartung on in-group versus out-group morality in biblical society. This paper presents specific arguments for the views you disdain as "inaccurate". For instance, here's Dawkins drawing from Hartung:

Moses Maimonides, the highly respected twelfth-century rabbi and physician, expounds the full meaning of 'Thou shalt not kill' as follows: 'If one slays a single Israelite, he transgresses a negative commandment, for Scripture says, Thou shalt not murder. If one murders willfully in the presence of witnesses, he is put to death by the sword. Needless to say, one is not put to death if he kills a heathen.' Needless to say! (p.254)

Your strategy here, Andrew, is quite similar to the one John McCain employed in the first Presidential debate: adopt a patronizing tone and treat every point of disagreement not as a legitimate clash of opinions, but as evidence that your opponent is "naive" and "inexperienced" for not recognizing the superiority of your own position.

Next:

He says that the infancy gospel of Thomas was left out of the New Testament as a result of an "arbitrary" process, and that it had just as much right to be part of the Bible as the the four canonical texts.

Yes. And?

He claims that the argument between those who believed in the Holy Trinity and those who denied it was essentially meaningless.

I quite agree.

He talks about the more blood curdling elements in the Old Testement without any apparent awareness of Christian teaching about the Jewish Law being superceded.

Let's be clear that I asked you for examples of things Dawkins says that are inaccurate. It is not inaccurate to say that the Old Testament contains a great number of brutal, violent laws. That is a true statement and a valid observation. Your complaint seems to consist solely of saying that Dawkins doesn't accept the usual Christian apologetics for why we should give that a pass.

He seems to think that all Christians support the "penal substitution" view of the Atonement (that God wanted to punish someone, and the innocent Jesus volunteered).

It's true that, when discussing Christian doctrine about the death and resurrection of Jesus, Dawkins does focus on the penal substitution theory - and rightly so, in my opinion, as that is no doubt the view held by the vast majority of Christians today. Nowhere that I see does he state either that this is universally believed or that there are no alternatives. Your complaint here is actually an excellent example of the Courtier's Reply: you seem to be asserting that, in the middle of an argument against the barbarous doctrine that sin can be forgiven by punishing the guilty in place of the innocent, Dawkins should veer off into discussing all the obscure Christian views of soteriology and consider them each in turn.

And he still thinks Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews.

I'll grant you this one: Dawkins does attribute authorship of Hebrews to Paul. As I've shown, though, most of your other objections are not about factual inaccuracies but differences of opinion. If your most substantial objection to a 400-page book is that Dawkins isn't up to date with New Testament critical scholarship regarding the authorship of the minor epistles, I'm fine to let the debate stand at that. And let's not forget that there are still plenty of Christians who also believe that Hebrews was written by Paul (example).

If I've understood the book right, he's arguing that our scientific knowledge of evolution proves that story of "creation" in Old Testement isn't true; that it follows that the "God" in that story doesn't exist; and that therefore all other possible versions of God don't exist either.

I've read TGD and I have no idea where it says anything remotely like this. Dawkins' actual argument is that, if we reject the hypothesis that a world as complexly ordered as our own simply exists with no particular explanation, we should consider the analogous hypothesis even less likely for an even more complex and highly ordered being such as a deity. His argument holds that complex things only come about through evolution-like processes from simpler origins.

karatemack

I would say his assertion is absolutely correct, and yet I would draw a different conclusion as what Dawkins fails to point out is that the God of the Bible is worshipped during the same period as all of these gods who have now 'ceased to exist'... and yet He remains. Why is this God different?

The Hindu gods were around all that time as well and for longer. What's your point?

Dawkins asserts that the probability, as suggested by creationists, for evolution to have occurred through natural selection is looked at through a flawed lense.

And he's right, which is a classic blunder of creationists. Having a fully-formed organism appear is beyond the bounds of what we would consider statistically possible, and it's a good thing that no one is saying that this is what happened. Unfortunately, the creationists insist that this is what people are claiming happened so that they can "debunk" evolution (even though this isn't even evolution, but abiogenesis - meaning the creos are doubly wrong).

karatemack:

Dawkins asserts that the probability, as suggested by creationists, for evolution to have occurred through natural selection is looked at through a flawed lense. He states that it's not an all or nothing proposition. He uses the example of the dribbling lock, trying to undermine the essence of the probability argument. What he fails to acknowledge is that the statistical improbability listed (which is 4.9 X 10 -191) applies only to the likelihood that proteins came together in the correct way to form RNA. It isn't applied to the entire evolutionary process, only the intial stage of life. Therefore it is an irreducible minimum which cannot be simplified in the way that Dawkins attempts to.

I must say right up front that I'm on dial up and thus it is not feasible for me to watch that video, so I must rely on your description of what was said.

talk.origins has a decent explanation for why that probability of RNA/protein/whatever forming is flawed, though I wish it had better references, especially since the one listed for that page doesn't exist. The two points that I had typed out before finding that link are echoed there: "Any calculation of odds must take into account all possible molecules (not just proteins) that might function to promote life." and "The calculation of odds ignores the fact that innumerable trials would have been occurring simultaneously."

Basically, as I understand it, Dawkins may have mislabeled what the probability was for, but he was correct in stating that "it's not an all or nothing proposition." A protein or whatever may have built up in pieces, had its formation accelerated by other molecules, etc.

Dawkins admits that intelligent design would be a plausable explanation if only we could define the source of the creator. I find this reasoning flawed. When I smell freshly cooked apples, I do not have to locate the source of the smell to know that there is something causing the smell.

I don't have Dawkins' exact words, so I'm not sure if his argument is flawed or not; "the source of the creator" doesn't make much sense. I would say, however, that if we knew something about the creator, then ID could potentially be tested. As it is, ID is worthless.

I agree that if we can smell baked apples (I presume you mean "design" by this analogy) that something is causing that smell... but we can follow that smell to find the source, and we've done so as well as we can so far, and it isn't looking like a baker so much as an apple that splattered on a warm stone and cooked in the sun.

That is, in fact, what the Book of Revelation says. This comes from Dawkins discussing the famous verses about the 144,000 witnesses, which, as Revelation points out, consist of twelve thousand people from each of the original 12 tribes of Israel (7:4-8). Dawkins himself does not accept this as gospel, but specifically points out that "some sects", such as the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret these 144,000 witnesses to be the sum total of those who will be saved from the earth.

I think that this discussion should be kept at a serious and mature level, so let me just say

LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE! LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE!

In the Book of Revelation, St John has a vision of heaven. In Heaven, he sees two, count them, TWO, groups of people. The first group of people consists, as you say, of 12,000 people from each of the twleve tribes. The second group of people, which John says is far too large to count, consists of people from every nation on earth. Small group of Jews, huge group of gentiles. (The Jehovahs Witnesses do not, as far as I know, say the the 144,000 represent all thse who will be saved: they believe in a two teir system of salvation, with the 144,000 representing the heavenly "government", and the much bigger group representing those who will "live for ever in a paradise on earth." TWO groups.) The Dawk has read a passage which says, in effect "In heaven there will be Jews and Gentiles" and quoted it as "In heaven, there will be Jews". It is, I agree, a long passage in a difficult book. What the error shows is that he has not read Revelations and tried to understand it. He's scanned it looking for proof texts which support his text. Like the stupidist kind of Christian, in fact.

...and that Jesus thought that "love thy neigbour" only applies to Jews.

Since that is clearly the way it's stated in the original text of the Bible, I fail to see the problem

Jesus is SPECIFICALLY ASKED whether "neigbhour" means "Jew". He replies, to paraphrase, "Well, if you had been mugged, and a heretic foriegner helped you, but two religious jews ignored you, who would have been your neigbour?" It seems to me that when we read a book which is (at least partly) a critique of religion, and discover that the author has NEVER HEARD OF THE PARABLE OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN, the only sensible thing to do is to say "This is not a serious book, and we won't pay any more attention to it."

You cite a passage from Leviticus which talks about charitable behaviour towards fellow Jews. What about all the passages which tell the Jews to welcome strangers and foriegners in their land, treating them like members of the family, because they, the Jews, were slaves and outcasts in Egypt? The game of proof texts doesn't work. At all.

The point about the Talmud is more valid, but one has no right to say "The Bible says..." if one means "Respected first century commentators of the Bible interpret it to mean" and without noting if there are dissenting voices, and that not all modern Jews use the Talmud in the first place. It is also striking that when the Talmud appears to make a text more harsh, he says that the Talmudic interpetation is what the Bible "really means." But when the Talmud appears to soften a passage - interpreting that the death penalty for rebellious children only applies to those who have cursed their parents in the name of YHWH - he mysteriously doesn't mention it. In a British news paper, he asserted without qualification that the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Though shalt not kill a jew", which since there isn't (correct me if I'm wrong) a hebrew word for "kill a jew", is a downright lie.

He says that the infancy gospel of Thomas was left out of the New Testament as a result of an "arbitrary" process, and that it had just as much right to be part of the Bible as the the four canonical texts.

Yes. And?

Er...this indicates a naive understanding of the question of the formation of the canon? I mean, where is his evidence that any Christian group ever regarded Thomas as canon? That he possibly has it confused it with the gnostic "sayings" Gospel? That he's vaguely heard that there are books with "gospel" in the title and vaguely heard that the canon of tne New Testament was fixed rather late, and assumed that means that at some point someone arbitrarily decided "Peter - in" "Judas - out"? That Mary Magdalen was Jesus wife and the ancestor of Kylie Minogue?

A lot of books which are now regarded as "Patristic Literature" -- the Shepherd of Hermas, and the epistles of Clement, I think, without looking it up -- may at one time have been regarded as part of the Bible; and one or two books which canonical (Jude, John's letters, Revelation) were rejected by some groups. And this is an important subject in the history of Christianity, and the idea that some Christians have that the Bible dropped out of the sky fully formed in the second century is as silly as the Dan Brown fantasies that Dawkins seems to indulge in.) But "Thomas was left out of the Bible by an arbitrary process" isn't an argument: it's a slogan.

He claims that the argument between those who believed in the Holy Trinity and those who denied it was essentially meaningless.

I quite agree.

Five minutes research could show you why Christians might have thought it made a different if Jesus was God-in-Human-Form or A-messenger-who-God-sent. I agree, of course, that if there isn't a God, than asking ANY question about God is a waste of time. But it isn't hard to find out why, among people who did believe in God, the question "What is Jesus relation to God?" was meaningful and important. The argument that says "Christians are silly, because they ask questions about God, and it's silly to ask questions about God, becasue there isn't a God" seems a little circular to me. If you don't play "Dungeons and Dragons" then an argument about whether a level fifteen dwarf assassin can use and edged weapon on a Tuesday might seem to be a question "about nothing". But if you do, it's a perfectly answerable question, and "Dungeons and Dragons players are silly because they attach meaning to the rules of Dungeons and Dragons" is not an argument.


He talks about the more blood curdling elements in the Old Testement without any apparent awareness of Christian teaching about the Jewish Law being superceded.

Let's be clear that I asked you for examples of things Dawkins says that are inaccurate. It is not inaccurate to say that the Old Testament contains a great number of brutal, violent laws. That is a true statement and a valid observation. Your complaint seems to consist solely of saying that Dawkins doesn't accept the usual Christian apologetics for why we should give that a pass.

My apologies, Sir. I had passed beyond mere "inaccuracies" and was adressing myself to the question "Why the Dawk's ingnorance of What Christians Believe makes his critique of the Christian religion valueless."

I am not saying that Christian aplogetics say that we should give the Old Testament "a pass". You know that I'm not saying that. The Christian New Testament -- the books of Hebrews and Romans, for a start -- are ABOUT the question "Does the Torah still apply? If not, what was the point of it?" If a book is going to do a critique of Christianity without mentioning a cardinal, central, elementary point of Christian belief, then I don't see why I should waste my time on it.

It's true that, when discussing Christian doctrine about the death and resurrection of Jesus, Dawkins does focus on the penal substitution theory - and rightly so, in my opinion, as that is no doubt the view held by the vast majority of Christians today. Nowhere that I see does he state either that this is universally believed or that there are no alternatives. Your complaint here is actually an excellent example of the Courtier's Reply: you seem to be asserting that, in the middle of an argument against the barbarous doctrine that sin can be forgiven by punishing the guilty in place of the innocent, Dawkins should veer off into discussing all the obscure Christian views of soteriology and consider them each in turn.

The Courtier's Reply is a riff on an Andersen story about how easy it is to fall in line with recieved wisdom, yes? (In the story, every one knows that the emperor is naked, but no-one steps out of line and says so due to social embarassment.)

The analogy, in this case, would be as follows.

I say "Look a the King's beautiful blue robe. It's beautiful and blue. Oh, the beauty of it's blueness!"

Along comes a little boy who says "I can prove to you that the Emperor is naked. He would never wear a green robe, because he hates the colour green and promised is mother in law that he would never wear it."

I reply. "But I never said that the robe is green. I keep saying that it's blue."

"Why do you insist on talking about the colour of a robe that obviously isn't there?" replies the boy.

"Well, you started it." say I.

It is not my contention that the boy's stupid ignorant unwillingness to listen to what I have said about the robe proves that the robe exists. I only suggest that that particular argument ("the king would never wear green") is invalid.

I think that it is a little bit naughty of you to imply that I am setting a simple, mainstrem doctrine of the atonement (Jesus as cosmic whipping boy) against an rarefied, erudite one which only someone who can spell "soteriology" might be expected to understand. I'm not. I have on my shelf C.S Lewis's book "Mere Christianity", about as popular and mainstream a book as you could find: he rejects the idea of penal substitution. I also have a book called "The Cross of Christ" by John Stott, a very mainstream conservative evangelical, darling of the Christian Union. He also rejects penal substitution. You have almost certainly been handed a tract called "Three Steps To God" at some time in your life: if so, it argues that "sin" is a gulf between man and God and says that Jesus bridged that chasm.

I am sure that there are objections to these ideas as well; and I am not saying they shouldn't be debated. Of course they should. All I'm really saying is that "The God Delusion" is a silly book which contributes nothing substantial to the discussion.

@ karatemack

When I smell freshly cooked apples, I do not have to locate the source of the smell to know that there is something causing the smell.

If you are conscious on an operating table and, as the neurosurgeon goes about her business, you suddenly smell burnt toast, then you should be very careful about drawing inferences concerning the "source" of that smell.

Dawkins is making the point that we cannot start a coherent empirical investigation from the starting position that an undetectible designer is responsible for the processes we're observing. If I have to explain that any further, then you're guilty in your criticism of Dawkins of exactly the flaws you're supposedly pointing out. That [ahem] somewhat mitigates how seriously we should take your argument, dontcha think?

The Courtier's Reply is a riff on an Andersen story about how easy it is to fall in line with recieved wisdom, yes? (In the story, every one knows that the emperor is naked, but no-one steps out of line and says so due to social embarassment.)

Being infamiliar with this particular "sacred text" might be more excusable than being infamiliar with the Bible :) But I'm surprised how many people have this impression! It's clear from the story that everyone (except the swindlers) assumes that it's possible to see the clothing.

"“How is this?” said the Emperor to himself. “I can see nothing! This is indeed a terrible affair! Am I a simpleton, or am I unfit to be an Emperor? That would be the worst thing that could happen--Oh! the cloth is charming,” said he, aloud. “It has my complete approbation.” And he smiled most graciously, and looked closely at the empty looms; for on no account would he say that he could not see what two of the officers of his court had praised so much. All his retinue now strained their eyes, hoping to discover something on the looms, but they could see no more than the others; nevertheless, they all exclaimed, “Oh, how beautiful!” and advised his majesty to have some new clothes made from this splendid material, for the approaching procession."

(this is from here, should be reasonably faithful to the original)

To OMGF:

"The Hindu gods were around all that time as well and for longer. What's your point?"

My point is only to establish that the God of the Bible is not the same as the gods Dawkins chose to compare Him to. I was not asked to prove God's existence, only to demonstrate why I disagree with Dawkins' position. Dawkins, by his own presentation, shows that the God of the Bible is uniquely different. (he claims that this 'difference' is only perpetuated by the followers of this faith)

"Having a fully-formed organism appear is beyond the bounds of what we would consider statistically possible, and it's a good thing that no one is saying that this is what happened."

You didn't respond to my point. I have already addressed the point you've tried to establish here. The statistical probability of inanimate proteins coming together to form RNA is what's in question. We're looking at the first essential step in the process. The probability focuses only on this, not the entire process. And please do me to service of claiming probability is no reason to reject an argument. As in the first few minutes of Dawkins' presentation he states that he does NOT completely reject the idea God COULD exist, however makes the claim that it is so highly unlikely that God does exist that we should not put our trust in theories which suggest He does.

To Nes:

"A protein or whatever may have built up in pieces, had its formation accelerated by other molecules, etc."

No one is saying that it is impossible for evolution to have occurred this way (as currently 'provable' by science). If I could show beyond all reasonable doubt that evolution could not have occurred, then I doubt this conversation would continue. I am simply applying Dawkins' own logic to the problem at hand. He claims that the existence of God is so unlikely that we should reject it. Following his logic, if it is found that the evolutionary process is statistically unprobable (overwhelmingly so) then we should reject it as well. Again, this is not a proof for the existence of God, only a valid critism of the alternative to God suggested.

"As it is, ID is worthless."

Does worthlessness lie in the unproven theories of the world or in their application? A theory may one day prove false, but may still have proved helpful in other ways. Again, not an argument to PROVE ID is true, but rather to criticize your assessment of theories as a whole. As a christian, if it is proven that the theories on the Origin of Life are false and ID was correct the entire time, I would still say that the theory itself contributed something to the honest study of ID as a valid critique which afforded us an opportunity to more deeply consider the conclusions we hold to be true.

"I agree that if we can smell baked apples (I presume you mean "design" by this analogy) that something is causing that smell... but we can follow that smell to find the source, and we've done so as well as we can so far, and it isn't looking like a baker so much as an apple that splattered on a warm stone and cooked in the sun."

Please take my comments in context. This comment was a critique of Dawkins' skyhooks and cranes symbolism. The assertion he made is that only theories which have an identifyable source are valid. In my example I should have been more specific. Let's say I'm blind and strapped to a table. I smell apples. Someone tells me of an apple tree nearby. They bring me a piece of it's bark and let me feel it. Another tells me a baker made an apple pie, and that is why I smell the apples. They don't have the pie, but they assure me it's been made. The baker has left and has put the pie out of reach so that there is no way for the person trying to convince me of the pie's existence to provide me with tangible evidence that it is real. I might have a good reason to believe in the tree, given that I've handled tangible evidence of it. But in reality, the pie may exist... My criticism is only that this 'skyhooks' and 'cranes' symbolism does not rule out the possibility of creation.

To Heliobates:

"Dawkins is making the point that we cannot start a coherent empirical investigation from the starting position that an undetectible designer is responsible for the processes we're observing."

I agree that theology is not science. Without doubt. Science should NEVER begin with conclusions about what is being observed. That is also a flaw with the origins of life and evolution. Where did matter come from? Where did the items which caused those items come from? Dawkins' himself examined a claim that we were planted here by alien life forms. He said the problem is that we will always be caught in a cycle of explaining the origin of the origin. I don't see how the Origin of Life overcomes this.

"That [ahem] somewhat mitigates how seriously we should take your argument, dontcha think?"

If I were using this as the BASIS for my belief in ID or creationism, then yes. I would be completely undone. A common misconception is that ID is simply an answer or argument to evolution (mainly because many christians use and see it this way). I am NOT establishing points for ID or creationism. The only reason I am brining these concepts into view is because Dawkins' has supplied us with logical patterns of reasoning by which he claims we can rule these theories out as possibilites. I am simply applying this same logic to the theory he WOULD have us believe, and I find it does not hold up under the same criticism it applies to other views.

I am simply applying this same logic to the theory he WOULD have us believe, and I find it does not hold up under the same criticism it applies to other views.

To be fair to you, Dawkins often reasons from supressed premises. So do most of us.

So I think I detect a Ubangi in your fuel supply here:

That is also a flaw with the origins of life and evolution. Where did matter come from? Where did the items which caused those items come from?

I think Dawkins often simply assumes that his audience will grant him the limitations of methodological naturalism. There may be a point at which we, with our ability to detect, observe, replicate via experimentation... the phenomenae of our universe, may have to throw up our hands and say "can't be done". The metaphysical naturalist, who assumes naturalistic causes at this point, isn't really doing the same thing as the creationist who says "musta been God!". Your suppressed premise seems to be that we will be able to devise an account of the origins of the universe and the origin of life on our planet and this is a kind of goalpost-shifting since no supernatural explanation of origins has to be constrained by repeatability, verifiability, evidentiary support and (possibly) falsifiability. If I'm misreading you, I apologize, but you do seem to presume that these two models have some equivalence of explanatory power. In other words I say "goddidit" is not an explanation, but rather a refusal to explain.

Unlike religious explanations, scientific explanations not only try to answer questions such as "Where did matter come from? Where did the items which caused those items come from?" by formulating hypotheses based on observation. It also vigorously tests these hypotheses and discards them when necessary.

If the CERN physicists find the Higgs Boson, the Standard Model of particle physics will have been completely vindicated and we'll be a lot closer to answering the apologists' favorite brand of misdirection: "how can something come from nothing?" On the other hand, if the LHC experiments fail to demonstrate the existence of the Higgs Boson, or something with an equivalent function, all physicists are going to have to carefully re-evaluate the Standard Model, possibly junking it if necessary and starting over from scratch. Are you suggesting any religion can survive that kind of scrutiny? If you equate the two "methods" of "investigation" then you do. And then you have to be prepared to accept that religion has to fundamentally realign itself just based on the discoveries of the past century, or admit that you're not really talking about two methods with the same explanatory power.

As a christian, if it is proven that the theories on the Origin of Life are false and ID was correct the entire time, I would still say that the theory itself contributed something to the honest study of ID as a valid critique which afforded us an opportunity to more deeply consider the conclusions we hold to be true.

This may be true in some huggy-feely philosophical sense, but it's very important to acknowledge that ID proponents have not pursued a scientific process of investigation. Whatever it's utility as a stone to sharpen critical thinking skills, ID contributes nothing to our developing scientific understanding.

I think this is the substrate of Dawkins "crane vs. skyhook" argument, whether or not he successfully articulates this view.

@ James H

I went to Dawkins, then Hitchens, then Harris -- or their books at least -- seeking a philosophical and intellectual grounding for my own atheism. I came away intensely dissatisfied.

You might try Nicholas Everitt's philosophy textbook, The Nonexistence of God. Everitt discusses the logical validity of claims about God's nature and existence from a strictly neutral starting point. It's a good, exhaustive read that showcases sophistication on both sides (check out Plantinga's revamped ontological argument on pp. 41-3). For the scientific viewpoint I liked Stenger's God, the Failed Hypothesis although it's a little more polemical.

Heliobates..

Nice response. I realize it's thread drift, but I'd like to comment on this: you said, "If the CERN physicists find the Higgs Boson, the Standard Model of particle physics will have been completely vindicated and we'll be a lot closer to answering the apologists' favorite brand of misdirection: "'how can something come from nothing?'"

Let's say they find it (the Higgs Boson). Then great; we can now explain how something came from nothing. Thus we obtain a mechanical framework for the appearance of material existence.

On the surface, I'll say this fact would still contribute absolutely nothing conclusive to any arguments about the existence or non-existence of God.

In response to Heliobates, I said,

"Let's say they find it (the Higgs Boson). Then great; we can now explain how something came from nothing. Thus we obtain a mechanical framework for the appearance of material existence. On the surface, I'll say this fact would still contribute absolutely nothing conclusive to any arguments about the existence or non-existence of God."

Thinking further, the discovery of the Higgs Boson could actually lend well to the plausibility of atheism. However, this is a different ballgame than saying the discovery of the Higgs Boson contributes anything conclusive to arguments about the existence or non-existence of God.

karatemack:

Ahh, I see what you meant by the apples thing now. I wasn't familiar with the skyhooks and cranes thing. While I agree that it's possible that the pie exists, I see no reason to suppose that it actually does until some evidence comes in to support it... which I guess puts me in Dawkins' camp?

[Dawkins] claims that the existence of God is so unlikely that we should reject it. Following his logic, if it is found that the evolutionary process is statistically unprobable (overwhelmingly so) then we should reject it as well. Again, this is not a proof for the existence of God, only a valid critism of the alternative to God suggested. [sic]

I would agree that if there were huge valid improbabilities for evolution, then the theory should be closely examined and either discarded or refined (whichever is more appropriate). The particular example given, however, is not a valid improbability.

"As it is, ID is worthless."

Does worthlessness lie in the unproven theories of the world or in their application? A theory may one day prove false, but may still have proved helpful in other ways. Again, not an argument to PROVE ID is true, but rather to criticize your assessment of theories as a whole. As a christian, if it is proven that the theories on the Origin of Life are false and ID was correct the entire time, I would still say that the theory itself contributed something to the honest study of ID as a valid critique which afforded us an opportunity to more deeply consider the conclusions we hold to be true.

I couldn't agree more with what heliobates said: "Whatever it's utility as a stone to sharpen critical thinking skills, ID contributes nothing to our developing scientific understanding. [sic]" (Contrast with Newton's theory of gravity; compare to the flat earth theory.)

Thus, I say it's worthless.

(I fear we are straying too far off topic, so this will probably be my last response in this direction. Feel free to respond.)

To Heliobates:

"To be fair to you, Dawkins often reasons from supressed premises. So do most of us."

Are you justifying Dawkins' assertions using a 'two wrongs make a right' standpoint? That's what it seems like.

"I think Dawkins often simply assumes that his audience will grant him the limitations of methodological naturalism. There may be a point at which we, with our ability to detect, observe, replicate via experimentation... the phenomenae of our universe, may have to throw up our hands and say "can't be done". The metaphysical naturalist, who assumes naturalistic causes at this point, isn't really doing the same thing as the creationist who says "musta been God!". Your suppressed premise seems to be that we will be able to devise an account of the origins of the universe and the origin of life on our planet and this is a kind of goalpost-shifting since no supernatural explanation of origins has to be constrained by repeatability, verifiability, evidentiary support and (possibly) falsifiability. If I'm misreading you, I apologize, but you do seem to presume that these two models have some equivalence of explanatory power. In other words I say "goddidit" is not an explanation, but rather a refusal to explain."

This is a straw man argument. I state this because I have stated many times already that I am not arguing FOR creationism, only AGAINST Dawkins' assertions. You keep responding as though I am attempting to 'prove' creationism. I am not. I am only applying Dawkins' own logic to the assertions he makes, and stating that I find his own conclusions do not hold up under the scrutiny of his own logic. In the first place this opinion was offered in response to the question of what critiques I had about Dawkins' or any other atheists' view of Biblical theology.

Stop ignoring the points I'm making about Dawkins. Even you admit twice in your post that Dawkins' logic has flaws:

"To be fair to you, Dawkins often reasons from supressed premises."

"I think this is the substrate of Dawkins "crane vs. skyhook" argument, whether or not he successfully articulates this view."

I want to pose a question here. Do you believe there DOES exist anything which is not observable and definable by science? Or is existence itself defined by the ability to be evaluated scientifically?

karatemack,

My point is only to establish that the God of the Bible is not the same as the gods Dawkins chose to compare Him to.

Dawkins clearly states in TGD, that he is tackling the god that most regular Xians believe in. If you have a different conception of god, then he wasn't speaking directly to you. It is not cool to criticize someone for not addressing your specific god and saying that they are necessarily ignorant of all Xianity because they did not conform to your wishes on which god they should address.

You didn't respond to my point. I have already addressed the point you've tried to establish here. The statistical probability of inanimate proteins coming together to form RNA is what's in question. We're looking at the first essential step in the process. The probability focuses only on this, not the entire process.

That's only partially true. Creationists are known for doing a bait and switch here where they try and calculate the probability of a fully formed cell and then claim that no pieces could form. Either way, you are still wrong, because the probabilities being discussed do not resemble the actual probabilities of the arguments put forth by scientists.

And please do me to service of claiming probability is no reason to reject an argument. As in the first few minutes of Dawkins' presentation he states that he does NOT completely reject the idea God COULD exist, however makes the claim that it is so highly unlikely that God does exist that we should not put our trust in theories which suggest He does.

...

No one is saying that it is impossible for evolution to have occurred this way (as currently 'provable' by science). If I could show beyond all reasonable doubt that evolution could not have occurred, then I doubt this conversation would continue. I am simply applying Dawkins' own logic to the problem at hand. He claims that the existence of God is so unlikely that we should reject it. Following his logic, if it is found that the evolutionary process is statistically unprobable (overwhelmingly so) then we should reject it as well.

As to Dawkins' claim, the probability of god existing is vanishingly small, and we should not put our trust in this probability. In fact, it is irrational to do so.

As for your second paragraph, please note (once again) that you are speaking of abiogenesis, not evolution. Either way, I see no reason to say that we should hold onto a flawed theory (evolution or any other) that is statistically impossible if we have no other evidence in which to use to account for it. What's the problem?

As a christian, if it is proven that the theories on the Origin of Life are false and ID was correct the entire time, I would still say that the theory itself contributed something to the honest study of ID as a valid critique which afforded us an opportunity to more deeply consider the conclusions we hold to be true.

How so? I can make a wild-assed, stab-in-the-dark guess about something and end up being right, but it doesn't mean that my guess contributed anything to anything.

Let's say I'm blind and strapped to a table. I smell apples. Someone tells me of an apple tree nearby. They bring me a piece of it's bark and let me feel it. Another tells me a baker made an apple pie, and that is why I smell the apples. They don't have the pie, but they assure me it's been made. The baker has left and has put the pie out of reach so that there is no way for the person trying to convince me of the pie's existence to provide me with tangible evidence that it is real. I might have a good reason to believe in the tree, given that I've handled tangible evidence of it. But in reality, the pie may exist... My criticism is only that this 'skyhooks' and 'cranes' symbolism does not rule out the possibility of creation.

How does your apple analogy bear any resemblance, what-so-ever, to the "goddidit" of ID and creationism?

Science should NEVER begin with conclusions about what is being observed. That is also a flaw with the origins of life and evolution. Where did matter come from? Where did the items which caused those items come from? Dawkins' himself examined a claim that we were planted here by alien life forms. He said the problem is that we will always be caught in a cycle of explaining the origin of the origin. I don't see how the Origin of Life overcomes this.

You're not serious are you? You're trying to equate a cycle of pushing back the answer to another level with a natural explanation for the formation of life? I'm failing to see the flaw that you claim exists with abiogenetic studies.

A common misconception is that ID is simply an answer or argument to evolution (mainly because many christians use and see it this way).

Actually, ID is just creationism in a cheap tuxedo. We even have evidence of this in "cdesign proponentists."

Sorry for the double post.

To Nes:

I don't want to be too ridiculous... but at my own expense... even if religious thought existed for no other reason other than to drive (by reason of it's absurdity) men to search for 'true reason', though a negative catalyst, it would still prove to be an effective catalyst.

Review the posts found here and you will see a repeated theme of your own members who admit that their journey towards atheism began with theism. Would they have arrived at their same conclusions without the disappointment of the religion they now reject? Or would they be complacent towards these matters entirely? Just a thought. (for the sake of argument)

I am only applying Dawkins' own logic to the assertions he makes, and stating that I find his own conclusions do not hold up under the scrutiny of his own logic.

And you are failing to provide arguments to support this assertion of yours. You make the argument that using Dawkins' own logic we should reject evolution, but it's based on the made-up, erroneous BS of creationists. Thus, your argument fails.

Your second assertion that abiogenesis somehow falters under the same problems as creationism is also cleary false. Thus, both your arguments are defeated.

Review the posts found here and you will see a repeated theme of your own members who admit that their journey towards atheism began with theism.

That's like saying alcoholism is a driving force towards becoming sober.

To OMGF:

You frequently state things to be so without any explanation. I, in fact, did explain why I feel Dawkins' suggestions refute his own theories. You never reply to anything of substance. I should probably point out that I don't plan to necessarily 'convert' anyone to my line of thinking. Draw your own conclusions certainly. But the slight suggestion that Dawkins' logic might be flawed is met by the same blind support you claim creationists give their own theories.

"That's like saying alcoholism is a driving force towards becoming sober."

You're point being? You don't think education about the EFFECTS of alcoholism affects whether or not people chooses to drink? How would we know these effects unless someone, in fact, were observed in an alcoholic lifestyle? You're right. Let's abandon all education on sex, alcohol and drug abuse. This sounds like an argument many conservative evangelicals make... are you arguing my points now?

This is a straw man argument. I state this because I have stated many times already that I am not arguing FOR creationism, only AGAINST Dawkins' assertions.

It's not a straw man. You can't argue for the "skyhook" without aligning yourself with the creationists. The skyhook is supposed to be the premise that something unprovable or undetectable is a cause of something that is provable or detectable. If the "cause" was detectable, it would be part of the scaffolding, or the crane, to use Dawkins' metaphor. In your own words "this 'skyhooks' and 'cranes' symbolism does not rule out the possibility of creation". I responded by saying that Dawkins is presuming methodological naturalism and his "logic" is completely consistent with this. Methodological naturalism has to rule out supernatural causes. Supernatural causes cannot even be coherently defined, much less investigated.

And don't get too pissy with me about your creationist affiliations or lack thereof. You advanced the serious possibility that the scientific world view claims that "something comes from nothing". This is a creationist talking point. As you conveniently ignored, I mentioned that the Standard Model of physics suggests that the Higgs Boson, or something that fulfills its function, plays the role of "creator" vis a vis matter in this universe. Studies of stochastic processes and emergent properties are current research proposals directly concerned with the development of the first organic replicators.* If you are proposing a supernatural first cause, then you're a creationist. Period. If you're not a creationist, stop using rhetoric like: "Where did matter come from? Where did the items which caused those items come from?".

Dawkins' logic isn't flawed. Your understanding of it is. That may still be Dawkins' fault, because he might be sloppy in assuming that the people he's talking to understand methodological naturalism, which you apparently do not.

You keep responding as though I am attempting to 'prove' creationism. I am not. I am only applying Dawkins' own logic to the assertions he makes, and stating that I find his own conclusions do not hold up under the scrutiny of his own logic.

His own logic is buttressed by his presumption of methodological naturalism. Methodological naturalism must a priori exclude the possibility of the supernatural. There's no other way to do empirical science. Now who's arguing a straw man refutation?

In the first place this opinion was offered in response to the question of what critiques I had about Dawkins' or any other atheists' view of Biblical theology.

Then stick with what you know. Dawkins may not be able argue effectively on your turf, but you're completely outclassed on his.

Do you believe there DOES exist anything which is not observable and definable by science?

It depends on your definition of the word "exists". Seriously. In a nutshell: the only reliable set of tools for investigating the phenomenological universe is the scientific method backed by presumptions of methodological naturalism. The inevitable "love", "truth", "beauty"... do not exist apart from human neuro-cognition in the context of human society. To say that "love" exists in the same sense that faux-amphibolite exists is to commit a serious category error.

If you really want to argue philosophy, we're going to have to start from first principles or else you're just going to wind up arguing in bad faith. You should dig into Owen Flanagan, Galen Strawson or David MacArthur if you're really interested in an answer to this question.

* See Robert Hazen's excellent Genesis:The Scientific Quest for Life's Origins

However, this is a different ballgame than saying the discovery of the Higgs Boson contributes anything conclusive to arguments about the existence or non-existence of God.

Well, the believers will just retreat behind the Higgs Boson. The "how did all the stuff get there" is an ubiquitous theistic refrain. If the Higgs Boson or something like it is discovered or demonstrated to be probable, then believers will just say "Well who made the Higgs Boson, huh? Huh?" If the Standard Model collapses because the LHC experiments demonstrate that it's fundamentally unsound, then the believers will say "see, you scientists really don't know anything", despite that this would be a total vindication of the scientific method.

There's no winning with people for whom arguing in bad faith is a world view.

"Then stick with what you know. Dawkins may not be able argue effectively on your turf, but you're completely outclassed on his."

Admittedly, excellent advice. Obviously my reason for being here (or perhaps not so obvious) is to gain a solid understanding of the 'other side' of the debate. Thank you for your refrences. I will consider them.

"It depends on your definition of the word "exists"."

Would you account the existence of love on the same level with God? IE: Love is no more provable or disprovable by science than God is.

Would you account the existence of love on the same level with God? IE: Love is no more provable or disprovable by science than God is.

Trying to do "internet philosophy" is like trying to get "a little bit pregnant". You're correct in asserting that some things cannot be "proven". So yes, "love" is no more "provable or disprovable than God" because "love" and "God" cannot be coherently defined. And even if they could be defined, Godel put paid to the idea that anything could be proven in a non-trivial sense of the word (not that Russell and Whitehead didn't try).

Let me put it this way: God, as an entity existing separately from human neuro-cognition and social interactions (SFHNCASI), certainly doesn't "exist" in the sense that the computer I'm typing on "exists". Any other type of existence SFHNCASI is contraindicated by overwhelming evidence from separate but mutually-supporting lines of empirical research going back at least 200 years.

I have yet to see a testable proposition about some aspect of "God's" nature. So much for religious empiricism. All philosophical approaches, including "argument from cosmology", "argument from design", "argument from history", "argument from morality", "argument from adverse consequences", "argument from it-feels-too-good-to stop"... are all based on question-begging suppressed premises.

Are we justified in a priori asserting that supernatural causes don't exist? No. But we're a posteriori justified in not taking them seriously. 2,500 years worth of "crickets chirping" makes for poor evidential support.

But really, if you want to read what I consider to be THE SLAM DUNK argument against theism, check out our host's A Ghost in the Machine. Without Cartesian dualism, religion is dead in the water.

karatemack,

You frequently state things to be so without any explanation.

I suggest you actually read my posts then.

I, in fact, did explain why I feel Dawkins' suggestions refute his own theories.

And I as well as others have pointed out why you are not making a good argument.

You never reply to anything of substance.

I was replying (point by point) to your comments, so if you wish to assert that your comments are substanceless, you'll get no argument from me.

But the slight suggestion that Dawkins' logic might be flawed is met by the same blind support you claim creationists give their own theories.

No one is suggesting that Dawkins' logic is necessarily not-flawed. What we are saying is that YOU aren't pointing out any flaws in it.

You're point being?

Did you really not understand what I said? Based on the rest of what you said, it's obvious that you didn't. I really doubt that you can get so much wrong without trying to. I believe that Ebon stated it well here:

Like a crooked lawyer scrutinizing a contract for loopholes, he parses everything we've written, trying to find even one interpretation - no matter how unreasonable - that would give him an excuse to attack or condemn us.

This is what you seem to be doing. You are continually unable (probably on purpose) to grasp what others here say and then turn around with "arguments" based on your erroneous interpretations of what was said. You yourself stated that atheism begins with theism, which I likened to sober beginning with alcoholism. To that you start to attack me about education about the effects of alcoholism? WTF?

Another quick question for you.

Does science always get it right? Have scientific explanations, even those considered "concrete" at the time, ever been proven wrong?

I'm not making a point (or even trying to) with these questions. But the answers to them will help me in my research.

@karatemack

With a minimal effort you could answer your own questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsificationism

Does science always get it right? Have scientific explanations, even those considered "concrete" at the time, ever been proven wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift#Examples_of_paradigm_shifts_in_science

A further reply to Andrew Rilstone's last comment:

The Dawk has read a passage which says, in effect "In heaven there will be Jews and Gentiles" and quoted it as "In heaven, there will be Jews".

Much as I admire your determination to find something wrong in Dawkins, Andrew, it would help your case if you confined your criticism to things he actually says. Here is the sum total of Dawkins' discussion of the passage in question:

Hartung draws attention to the two verses in Revelation where the number of those 'sealed' (which some sects, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, interpret to mean 'saved') is limited to 144,000. Hartung's point is that they all had to be Jews: 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Are you sure you've actually read this book?

Jesus is SPECIFICALLY ASKED whether "neigbhour" means "Jew". He replies, to paraphrase, "Well, if you had been mugged, and a heretic foriegner helped you, but two religious jews ignored you, who would have been your neigbour?" It seems to me that when we read a book which is (at least partly) a critique of religion, and discover that the author has NEVER HEARD OF THE PARABLE OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN, the only sensible thing to do is to say "This is not a serious book, and we won't pay any more attention to it."

On what grounds do you conclude that Dawkins has never heard of the story of the Good Samaritan? Because he didn't mention it in this section of this book? Should I likewise conclude that you don't know anything about Islam because you didn't present a thesis on the Five Pillars in your most recent comment?

As I said, you're trying to inflate mere differences of opinion into conclusions that Dawkins is ignorant because he doesn't agree with you. Like it or not, Andrew, Dawkins is not automatically wrong just because he doesn't accept the apologetic arguments you espouse. Nor is he obligated to present every possible counterargument to his own claims; his critics are more than capable of doing that, and Christians certainly don't hold themselves to the same standard.

On the specific claim under discussion, is the Good Samaritan a potential counterargument against exclusively in-group morality? Yes, certainly. On the other hand, the Bible also has Jesus say that those who are not with him are against him, that anyone who loves their parents or children more than him is not worthy of him, and that those who abandon their families to follow him will be richly rewarded. Clearer examples of in-group morality you could not ask for. Morally speaking, the Bible is a mixed and multifarious amalgamation. Good people can find verses in it to justify their behavior, of course. The problem is that evil people can do the same.

The game of proof texts doesn't work. At all.

Quite the contrary, it's perfect support for the point that Dawkins and I are making. You seem to think that if you can counter a bad verse with a good one, you've nullified the atheist argument. But this shows a failure to grasp the point at hand. The point at hand, as I think most atheists would phrase it, is that the Bible's contradictory and morally ambiguous nature is itself evidence that the book was not written by a perfectly good being. A book written by a bad person might still have some good parts; a book written by a good person would not have so many bad parts.

I mean, where is his evidence that any Christian group ever regarded Thomas as canon?

Again, Andrew, you have missed the essence of Dawkins' point. He wasn't arguing about the relative popularity of Thomas versus the other gospels: he was saying that there were no clearly defined or objective criteria by which the decision to include some books and exclude others was made. That is what it means to say that the Gospel of Thomas was left out as the result of an arbitrary process.

Five minutes research could show you why Christians might have thought it made a different if Jesus was God-in-Human-Form or A-messenger-who-God-sent.

I don't doubt that some Christians thought, and still do think, it makes a great difference. But their argument is sterile - it affects nothing about the wider world - and insoluble - there is no conceivable test or evidence that could settle the question. Like the archetypal debate over angels dancing on pinheads, it is ultimately irresolvable, and ultimately pointless. If Jesus was the firstfruits of God's creation rather than a co-eternal part of the triune creator, would you throw morality to the wind? I doubt it.

The Christian New Testament -- the books of Hebrews and Romans, for a start -- are ABOUT the question "Does the Torah still apply? If not, what was the point of it?" If a book is going to do a critique of Christianity without mentioning a cardinal, central, elementary point of Christian belief, then I don't see why I should waste my time on it.

Whether the Torah still applies, and why, is irrelevant to the question at hand. The question at hand is: "Why were these brutal and violent laws in the Bible in the first place?" This is plainly a legitimate and important thing to ask, and saying that these rules no longer apply is of no relevance in answering it.

Again, your critique of Dawkins boils down to the fact that he's not talking about the things you want him to talk about, and that he doesn't accept the standard apologetic arguments against his position.

I have on my shelf C.S Lewis's book "Mere Christianity", about as popular and mainstream a book as you could find: he rejects the idea of penal substitution.

It would really help your case if you gave specific citations rather than vague generalities about what a book does or does not say. I also have a copy of Mere Christianity, and Lewis does in fact endorse the idea of penal substitution or something very like it:

If you ask God to take you back without [repenting], you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak.

...Our attempts at this... will succeed only if we men share in God's dying... but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.

The mention of Jesus "paying our debt" and suffering "for us" seem to be incontrovertible indications that Lewis does in fact endorse a theory of penal substitution.

All I'm really saying is that "The God Delusion" is a silly book which contributes nothing substantial to the discussion.

And I maintain that this is true only if you hold that the only issues of importance are abstract matters of exegesis and theology. You still don't seem to grasp why this book was written.

Dawkins was not setting out to compare and contrast various theories of the atonement or to debate the authorship of the epistles. He wrote it to address the serious and real harm that religious belief has caused and is still causing in the world - the indoctrination of the young, the mental torment caused by teaching children about Hell, the oppression of women and gays in the name of God, the subversion of science, the very real danger of apocalypse fanatics gaining the secular power to make their fondest wishes come true. He wrote it to offer an alternative for people who didn't know there was one, to show that you can be happy and lead a good life without believing in God, and to call for atheists to receive the respect which we deserve.

These are great and laudable aims, and I don't accept the nitpicking reply that the entire book is worthless if Dawkins doesn't correctly attribute the authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews, or if he doesn't accept the critic's own pet beliefs about what topics he should or should not have discussed. People like that - like you - are in search of a petty excuse to dismiss a much larger and more important message that needs to be heard.

Here's a tangentially related quote.

"The suffering, death and resurrection of Christ must call the shots," he said. "If Christ had not risen from the dead, we never would have thought of original sin," because no one would have needed to explain why absolutely every human needed Christ's salvation.

How backwards, and revealing, is that?

This is a most interesting thread.

A few comments up, Heliobates said,

...if you want to read what I consider to be THE SLAM DUNK argument against theism, check out our host's A Ghost in the Machine. Without Cartesian dualism, religion is dead in the water.

I'm about 1/3 through Ghost In The Machine and although in a writer's context I'll say it's a most cohesive, well-written and wonderfully entertaining piece with a near-seamless progression of pertinent and well-supported facts, by no means do I agree with all of the conclusions, I feel the piece contains pivotal misunderstandings of religion that ironically merit the subject matter of this post (the Courtier's reply), and I do not consider it a slam dunk against theism. I don't even consider it a slam dunk against dualism, and this is not to say I particularly care for the dualist paradigm.

IMO the error in saying, "...without Cartesian dualism religion is dead in the water" is in assuming all religion dependent upon the Cartesian paradigm. Yes, I can and will offer a detailed counter-explanation, but it is far beyond the scope of the thread. Should Ebonmuse consider it worthwhile perhaps he'll post it.

As I always say at this point in discussion: what follows is very boring and I strongly recommend everyone not to read it...

ME: The Dawk has read a passage which says, in effect "In heaven there will be Jews and Gentiles" and quoted it as "In heaven, there will be Jews".

EBONMUSE: Much as I admire your determination to find something wrong in Dawkins, Andrew, it would help your case if you confined your criticism to things he actually says. Here is the sum total of Dawkins' discussion of the passage in question:

Hartung draws attention to the two verses in Revelation where the number of those 'sealed' (which some sects, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, interpret to mean 'saved') is limited to 144,000. Hartung's point is that they all had to be Jews: 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Are you sure you've actually read this book?

Yes, I have.

The passage which Dawkins quotes out of context goes like this:

"The I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. [Lists the tribes of Israel]. After that I looked and there boefore me was a great multitude that no-one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb."

The Lamb is (I think this is not controversial) a symbol for Jesus. The worship is described. An angel asks John, rhetorically, who "those in white robes" are, and when he doesn't know, tells him:

"These are they who have come out of the great tributlation: they have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb."

I think we can all agree that those who have "washed their robes in the blood of the lamb" means "Christians"; any interpretation would have, therefore, to say that "the Revelation-author thought that anyone, regardless of race or nation, could be a Christian". The 144,000 sealed is, I agree, more controversial. The most common interpretation is, I think: "The Sealed represent the Jews who have perfectly obeyed the Torah: Jews get into heaven by obeying the Torah; but everyone else needs to be forgiven through Christ." I agree that there are other possible interpretations. The Jehovah's Witnesses, I understand, believe that it represents a higher "grade" of salvation which they call the Heavenly Government. But it is really, really, really dishonest to quote the J.W's in support of your "racial in-group" theory, without pointing out that the J.W's DO NOT think that all the "heavenly government" will be Jews. They think that the "tribes of Israel" is only symbolic. I don't agree with them, but I don't think that Dawkins can have it both ways.

The original question was "Does someone have to understand Christian theology to deny the existence of God." My answer is "No, they don't."

But I submit that if someone is going to invoke the book of Revelation as part of an argument against Christianity, they ought to read it first, and to read some of the standard commentaries about it.

There has been a very silly argument put forward in this forum which goes: "since you can't possibly read EVERYTHING which has been written about the Bible, you can't really be blamed for having read practically nothing." I doubt that you'd apply this argument to a book which refers to a book about, say, the French Revolution or the works of Aristotle. I couldn't possibly read every technical tome that has ever been written about natural selection, but if I wanted to ridicule the idea, which I don't, you might at least expect me to have read, say, The Blind Watchmaker or some other popular intorduction.

EBONMUSE: On what grounds do you conclude that Dawkins has never heard of the story of the Good Samaritan? Because he didn't mention it in this section of this book? Should I likewise conclude that you don't know anything about Islam because you didn't present a thesis on the Five Pillars in your most recent comment?

You see, it seems to me that you are just being silly. If, as part of my argument, I had said "Islam requires you to eat especially big meals during Ramadan, and forbids Muslims from ever entering the Holy City", you could legitimately say, "You don't know anything about Islam, and therefore I am not going to take very seriously anything you say about it." In fact I don't know anything about Islam, and as a matter of fact, couldn't tell you what the five pillars are without going away and looking them up. (Fasting, Praying, Pilgrimage, Charity, and, er....) Which is why I keep off the subject.

Dawkins says that "Jesus limited his in-group of the saved strictly to Jews" and that this is because he fully accepted the Old Testament teaching that "neighbour" meant only "Jew". Dawkins claims to be drawing out attention to "one particularly unpalatable aspect of (the Bible's) ethical teaching" and telling us what "love thy neigbour" originally (or, when writing in newspapers, "really") means.

As a matter of fact, Jesus did not (he simply did not, it is printed in the text which the Dawk is attacking, in black and white: this is not a matter of intereptation) define "neighbour" as "fellow-Jew". He defined it as "anyone who needs help."

I tell you where I agree with you, though. I may have been too charitable in assuming that the Dawk didn't refer to this passage because he didn't know it. It maybe that he knew perfectly well that Jesus said that "neighbours" means "anyone who needs help", and deliberately didn't mention it. I assumed he was a fool: it may be that he's actually a villain.

Quite the contrary, it's perfect support for the point that Dawkins and I are making. You seem to think that if you can counter a bad verse with a good one, you've nullified the atheist argument. But this shows a failure to grasp the point at hand. The point at hand, as I think most atheists would phrase it, is that the Bible's contradictory and morally ambiguous nature is itself evidence that the book was not written by a perfectly good being. A book written by a bad person might still have some good parts; a book written by a good person would not have so many bad parts

That is not what he says. He says "Jesus thought only Jews would be saved", "Jesus thought gentiles were pigs", "Jesus thought that "neigbhour" meant "Jews." " I agree that you are making a much more sophisticated and interesting point than Dawkins, and one that could, presumably, be debated. I don't think that because "The God Delusion" is a bad book, not good book about atheism could be written; nor that because "The God Delusion" is a bad book, all atheists are fools.

ME: I mean, where is his evidence that any Christian group ever regarded Thomas as canon?

EBONMOUSE: Again, Andrew, you have missed the essence of Dawkins' point. He wasn't arguing about the relative popularity of Thomas versus the other gospels: he was saying that there were no clearly defined or objective criteria by which the decision to include some books and exclude others was made. That is what it means to say that the Gospel of Thomas was left out as the result of an arbitrary process.

This is really interesting. Every time I say that Dawkins has made a bad point, you draw my attention to a better point that he might have made, but didn't.

Dawkins quotes Thomas Jefferson as saying that a "council of eclessiastics" deciding for us which gospels were real and which were not; and Dawkins talks about the Gospel of Thomas "not making it" because "those eccelstiastics" thought that the stories in it were inauthentic. He says that they were "chosen" out of a "sample" which "Included "Thomas, Peter, Nicodemus, Philip, Bartholemew and Mary Magdalene." Surely we can agree that the idea of some churchmen sitting down with a dozen different Gospels (most of which aren't even "gospels" in the sense of beign "lives of Jesus")is entirely fanciful?

Oh, and it's a bit hard to see how you can, in one breath, say that Jesus is only thought to be a carpenter because of a silly mistranslation, and in the next breath say that Thomas, which is full of stories about Jesus in his father's carpentry shop, might perfectly well have been canonical.

ME: Five minutes research could show you why Christians might have thought it made a different if Jesus was God-in-Human-Form or A-messenger-who-God-sent.

EBONMOUSE: I don't doubt that some Christians thought, and still do think, it makes a great difference. But their argument is sterile - it affects nothing about the wider world - and insoluble - there is no conceivable test or evidence that could settle the question. Like the archetypal debate over angels dancing on pinheads, it is ultimately irresolvable, and ultimately pointless. If Jesus was the firstfruits of God's creation rather than a co-eternal part of the triune creator, would you throw morality to the wind? I doubt it.

1: I assume that you do know that "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" is a way of illustrating a perfectly good question about number theory. ("How many infinitely small things can fit into a mathematical point?")

2: I agree with you that if there is no God , then discussing the nature of God is pointless. You are correct to say that the definition of Morality doesn't hang on the difference between Trinitarians and Arians. It is also true that Trinitarians and Arians probably agree about the best way to cook a pancake and the capital of Belgium. I am not see what that is to the purpose: the premise "Religious discussions are only important to the extent they effect morality" is not one I would accept. What Dawkins says is that Arius and Athanasisus disagreed about the term "consubstantial"; he asks rhetorically what "substance" means in this context; replies that the only possible reply is that it means "very little" and moves on. He could easily have found out what "substance" meant, and why it was thought to be important. He doesn't. Why would I read a book about Christian theology by someone who claims not to understand elementary points about the history of Christian belief? (Every day, tabloid journalists make the same mistake writing about science: they quote a technical term that some scientist as used; mock the term for being far too difficult to understand, and then conclude that scientists don't know anything.)

EBONMUSE Whether the Torah still applies, and why, is irrelevant to the question at hand. The question at hand is: "Why were these brutal and violent laws in the Bible in the first place?" This is plainly a legitimate and important thing to ask, and saying that these rules no longer apply is of no relevance in answering it.

I agree with you that saying "Why were these brutal and violent laws in the Bible in the first place" is a good question. If you are making a serious argument, then part of your answer would be "Why, according to Christians, were these brutal law in the Bible? Does this answer stack up? Why, according to Jews, where these brutal laws in the Bible? Does this answer stack up? Why, according to the Bible itself, were these brutal laws in the Bible?" (You'd do this with any other Sacred Text, wouldn't you? What does the gun lobby say about the second ammendment? What does the anti gun lobby say about the second ammendment? What, so far as we can tell, did the founding fathers intend by the second ammendment? What has it been interpretted as meaning at different point over the last two centuries. A book which said "Har-har Americans can carry guns around all the time, democracy is stupid" is one you would lay aside in disgust.)

ME: I have on my shelf C.S Lewis's book "Mere Christianity", about as popular and mainstream a book as you could find: he rejects the idea of penal substitution.

EBONMOUSE: It would really help your case if you gave specific citations rather than vague generalities about what a book does or does not say. I also have a copy of Mere Christianity, and Lewis does in fact endorse the idea of penal substitution or something very like it:

This is my fault, and not Dawkins', yours, or Lewis's.

By "penal substitution" I meant "the doctrine that says that God was angry and needed to punish someone; but Jesus, who was innocent, volunteered to take the punishment, so everyone else was let off." It is presented in an extreme form in Mel Gibson's "Passion" movie, where it is specifically implied that the more physical punishment Jesus can take, the more forgiveness there will be. (I understand that this is a more extreme version of doctrine than the Catholic Church would currently endorce.) I did not mean "any doctrine which says that Jesus had to did in order for human beings to get back in touch with God and go to heaven". I think that my usage is the usual one, but it may not be, and it would be a shame to get bogged down in terminology.

"Jesus died for our sins" would certainly be agreed by all Christians; there have been different doctrinal answers to "how and in what way does this work?" C.S Lewis says that before he became a Christian he thought that "what you had to believe" was that "God wanted to punish men for having deserted and joined the Great Rebel but Christ volunteered to be punished instead, and so God let us off". Lewis says that this is "a silly theory" is you are thinking of punishment in a court, but less so if you think of it in terms of someone with money paying a debt on behalf of a bankrupt; and that everyone knows that when one person has got themselves into trouble "the task of getting them out usually falls to a friend". He then expounds a version of St Anselm's idea that people were seperated from God and unable to return to him; and that Jesus did the "going back" on our behalf. To be fair, Lewis doesn't exactly reject the "punishment" theory: he says that all "theories" of the atonement are only theories or models; and that the "punishment" one is not one he finds particularly helpful (i.e he recognizes that other people might, and thinks this is okay, provided you distinguish between the theory and the "thing itself.")

Similarly, John Stott rejects the "punishment" theory because it isn't Trinitarian - it implies that Jesus is a third party in the transaction; but he certainly does think that Jesus death was necessary for human being to get in touch with God.

I had assumed that the Dawk's use of terms like "sado-masochistic" implied that he thought the "punishment" theory was the one everyone believed: I agree that he doesn't say so in so many words.

My issue with his comments remains pretty much the same, though. He isn't obligated to refer to the specifically Christian idea of the Atonement in a book on whether or not God exists; in fact, on his terms, it's rather odd that he should want to. But having raised it, I think he ought to take the trouble to find out what different Christian groups believe, and what they have believed at different times. (Not to have read every book that has ever been written on the subject, nor to find out about ever obscure sect. Just a few standard works. Going out and talking to some Christians of different kinds would have been almost as good.)

EBONMUSE: Dawkins was not setting out to compare and contrast various theories of the atonement or to debate the authorship of the epistles. He wrote it to address the serious and real harm that religious belief has caused and is still causing in the world - the indoctrination of the young, the mental torment caused by teaching children about Hell, the oppression of women and gays in the name of God, the subversion of science, the very real danger of apocalypse fanatics gaining the secular power to make their fondest wishes come true. He wrote it to offer an alternative for people who didn't know there was one, to show that you can be happy and lead a good life without believing in God, and to call for atheists to receive the respect which we deserve.

But, because he is ignorant and dishonest about relgion, in my opinion, he does this very badly. In my opinion.

@cl

. Yes, I can and will offer a detailed counter-explanation, but it is far beyond the scope of the thread. Should Ebonmuse consider it worthwhile perhaps he'll post it.

Blog party at cl's!

Although it's thread drift and borderline tacky, since we are unable to comment on A Ghost In The Machine, I'll tuck this link right here..

The Biblical Distinction Between Soul And Spirit:
or, My Response To 'A Ghost In The Machine' - Part One