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	<title>Comments on: The Contributions of Freethinkers: W.E.B. Du Bois</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: cl</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39273</link>
		<dc:creator>cl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39273</guid>
		<description>I would add that DuBois&#039; empathy for Communism was not from the onset of age but present from youth. Also, saying he was the founder of the NAACP might be an exaggeration. However, he was pivotal in the formation of the Niagara movement, which in 1910 became the NAACP.

As Du Bois notes, &quot;Those who have not thus witnessed the frenzy of a Negro revival in the untouched backwoods of the South can but dimly realize the religious feeling of the slave...&quot; 

Even more off topic, in a sense it could be argued that the pre-Emancipation black&#039;s retreat into religion was a concession of loss tantamount to the acceptance of defeat. Writes Du Bois of the &quot;hypocritically compromising&quot; Southern blacks in contrast to their &quot;radical&quot; Northern counterparts on page 735 of &lt;i&gt;The Souls Of Black Folk&lt;/i&gt;, &quot;The Negro, losing the joy of this world, eagerly seized upon the offered conceptions of the next..&quot; In fact, in the very next sentence Du Bois describes this condition of mind as &quot;religious fatalism.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add that DuBois' empathy for Communism was not from the onset of age but present from youth. Also, saying he was the founder of the NAACP might be an exaggeration. However, he was pivotal in the formation of the Niagara movement, which in 1910 became the NAACP.</p>
<p>As Du Bois notes, "Those who have not thus witnessed the frenzy of a Negro revival in the untouched backwoods of the South can but dimly realize the religious feeling of the slave..." </p>
<p>Even more off topic, in a sense it could be argued that the pre-Emancipation black's retreat into religion was a concession of loss tantamount to the acceptance of defeat. Writes Du Bois of the "hypocritically compromising" Southern blacks in contrast to their "radical" Northern counterparts on page 735 of <i>The Souls Of Black Folk</i>, "The Negro, losing the joy of this world, eagerly seized upon the offered conceptions of the next.." In fact, in the very next sentence Du Bois describes this condition of mind as "religious fatalism."</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Carnell</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39052</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Carnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39052</guid>
		<description>I am a little surprised that people like DuBois were supporters of Communism in their youth, though it appears at that time that lots of public intellectuals in the West were fascinated with the twin face of fascism and communism.

What is surprising is how quickly advocates of fascism largely abandoned that particular faith, whereas a significant proportion of adherents of communism generally persisted until the bitter end. It&#039;s not surprising that Bertrand Russell initially had positive things to say and high hopes for the Bolshevik revolution, but quickly abandoned that as the evidence came in that contradicted his views and soon after ward authored a critique both of Lenin and of Bolshevism.

But in DuBois&#039; case, he wrote that obituary in 1953, long after the crimes of the Communist regime in general and of Stalin in particular were well known.

Communism appears to have functioned for some leftists of the day as a place keeper for the religion they had abandoned. Whereas Marx had said that religion is the opiate of the people, communism became the opiate of the left wing elite and the arguments in its favor (and against its critics) became very much like those religious believers use to deploy against critics of their system.

And, of course, if I were a believer I&#039;d enhance the &quot;atheism leads to Stalin&quot; line of argumentation by pointing out the # of prominent left atheists who were supporters of the Soviet Union. From the atheist side, I think it merely highlights that while religious belief may be the most visible form of widespread irrational thinking, it is hardly the only such system and that mythologies and moral blindness are not peculiar to religious belief but rather will persist even in entirely secular settings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a little surprised that people like DuBois were supporters of Communism in their youth, though it appears at that time that lots of public intellectuals in the West were fascinated with the twin face of fascism and communism.</p>
<p>What is surprising is how quickly advocates of fascism largely abandoned that particular faith, whereas a significant proportion of adherents of communism generally persisted until the bitter end. It's not surprising that Bertrand Russell initially had positive things to say and high hopes for the Bolshevik revolution, but quickly abandoned that as the evidence came in that contradicted his views and soon after ward authored a critique both of Lenin and of Bolshevism.</p>
<p>But in DuBois' case, he wrote that obituary in 1953, long after the crimes of the Communist regime in general and of Stalin in particular were well known.</p>
<p>Communism appears to have functioned for some leftists of the day as a place keeper for the religion they had abandoned. Whereas Marx had said that religion is the opiate of the people, communism became the opiate of the left wing elite and the arguments in its favor (and against its critics) became very much like those religious believers use to deploy against critics of their system.</p>
<p>And, of course, if I were a believer I'd enhance the "atheism leads to Stalin" line of argumentation by pointing out the # of prominent left atheists who were supporters of the Soviet Union. From the atheist side, I think it merely highlights that while religious belief may be the most visible form of widespread irrational thinking, it is hardly the only such system and that mythologies and moral blindness are not peculiar to religious belief but rather will persist even in entirely secular settings.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39049</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 02:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39049</guid>
		<description>I agree, Brian, that Du Bois&#039; praise for Stalin was deplorable. It&#039;s also rather inexplicable. Perhaps everyone has a blind spot when it comes to certain evils. 

My personal hypothesis is that Du Bois, like many intellectuals of the early twentieth century, was initially sympathetic to the utopian claims of communism. (To be fair, capitalism had done much to make itself look unattractive prior to reforms like the Pure Food and Drug Act or the rise of the labor movement.) That youthful idealism probably lasted later into his life, even after communism had done far more to discredit itself than capitalism ever had, and biased his views so as to prevent him from seeing clearly.

Still, even in the worst case, Du Bois&#039; support for Stalin was only verbal, never material. I don&#039;t excuse it, but every man has his flaws, and I don&#039;t think it negates the enormous contributions he made to the cause of civil rights and black equality here in the United States.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Brian, that Du Bois' praise for Stalin was deplorable. It's also rather inexplicable. Perhaps everyone has a blind spot when it comes to certain evils. </p>
<p>My personal hypothesis is that Du Bois, like many intellectuals of the early twentieth century, was initially sympathetic to the utopian claims of communism. (To be fair, capitalism had done much to make itself look unattractive prior to reforms like the Pure Food and Drug Act or the rise of the labor movement.) That youthful idealism probably lasted later into his life, even after communism had done far more to discredit itself than capitalism ever had, and biased his views so as to prevent him from seeing clearly.</p>
<p>Still, even in the worst case, Du Bois' support for Stalin was only verbal, never material. I don't excuse it, but every man has his flaws, and I don't think it negates the enormous contributions he made to the cause of civil rights and black equality here in the United States.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39044</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39044</guid>
		<description>Mr. DuBois was far from alone in the Left in losing all critical sense about Joseph Stalin. Bertrand Russell wondered why people who were usually intelligent and humane would turn around and defend Joseph Stalin and his monstrous regime; he remembered how George Bernard Shaw&#039;s bullshit detector would switch off when the bullshit came from Moscow.

Although one must concede that DuBois was ultimately correct, one must concede to the Booker Washington camp that social status is no substitute for competence. But BW and his friends ought to have been aware that being a very productive slave did not enable one to eventually own a plantation. And BW ought to have been aware of what competence without social status had done for the Jews -- they got stereotyped as being &lt;i&gt;too&lt;/i&gt; competent. Jews got stereotyped as ruthless, crooked, conniving businessmen, like bankers who demand their Pound of Flesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. DuBois was far from alone in the Left in losing all critical sense about Joseph Stalin. Bertrand Russell wondered why people who were usually intelligent and humane would turn around and defend Joseph Stalin and his monstrous regime; he remembered how George Bernard Shaw's bullshit detector would switch off when the bullshit came from Moscow.</p>
<p>Although one must concede that DuBois was ultimately correct, one must concede to the Booker Washington camp that social status is no substitute for competence. But BW and his friends ought to have been aware that being a very productive slave did not enable one to eventually own a plantation. And BW ought to have been aware of what competence without social status had done for the Jews -- they got stereotyped as being <i>too</i> competent. Jews got stereotyped as ruthless, crooked, conniving businessmen, like bankers who demand their Pound of Flesh.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39039</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 03:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39039</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Joseph Stalin was a great man; few other men of the 20th century approach his stature. He was simple, calm and courageous. He seldom lost his poise; pondered his problems slowly, made his decisions clearly and firmly; never yielded to ostentation nor coyly refrained from holding his rightful place with dignity. He was the son of a serf but stood calmly before the great without hesitation or nerves. But also - and this was the highest proof of his greatness - he knew the common man, felt his problems, followed his fate.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Like hell he did - he was just another maniac-turned-politician bent on imposing his will over everyone else to the point of slaying millions of his own subordinates!  I wouldn&#039;t trust a guy like him to run a McDonalds as he may decide to kill every employee that sees flaws in his business plan or else just looks at him in a funny way (just imagine the resulting lawsuits that would come out of such a debachle!).

The sooner every man becomes a power unto himself, the sooner we never have to deal with bastards like him again...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>"Joseph Stalin was a great man; few other men of the 20th century approach his stature. He was simple, calm and courageous. He seldom lost his poise; pondered his problems slowly, made his decisions clearly and firmly; never yielded to ostentation nor coyly refrained from holding his rightful place with dignity. He was the son of a serf but stood calmly before the great without hesitation or nerves. But also - and this was the highest proof of his greatness - he knew the common man, felt his problems, followed his fate."</p></blockquote>
<p>Like hell he did - he was just another maniac-turned-politician bent on imposing his will over everyone else to the point of slaying millions of his own subordinates!  I wouldn't trust a guy like him to run a McDonalds as he may decide to kill every employee that sees flaws in his business plan or else just looks at him in a funny way (just imagine the resulting lawsuits that would come out of such a debachle!).</p>
<p>The sooner every man becomes a power unto himself, the sooner we never have to deal with bastards like him again...</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Carnell</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39038</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Carnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 00:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39038</guid>
		<description>*Drifted* toward Communism?? Just read DuBois&#039; sycophantic obituary for Stalin:

http://www.mltranslations.org/Miscellaneous/DuBoisJVS.htm

&quot;Joseph Stalin was a great man; few other men of the 20th century approach his stature. He was simple, calm and courageous. He seldom lost his poise; pondered his problems slowly, made his decisions clearly and firmly; never yielded to ostentation nor coyly refrained from holding his rightful place with dignity. He was the son of a serf but stood calmly before the great without hesitation or nerves. But also - and this was the highest proof of his greatness - he knew the common man, felt his problems, followed his fate.&quot;

DuBois was, however, equally comfortable with religious/military dictatorships. He urged China to accept its Japanese liberators who were saving it, in part, from white aggression in DuBois&#039; view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*Drifted* toward Communism?? Just read DuBois' sycophantic obituary for Stalin:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mltranslations.org/Miscellaneous/DuBoisJVS.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.mltranslations.org/Miscellaneous/DuBoisJVS.htm</a></p>
<p>"Joseph Stalin was a great man; few other men of the 20th century approach his stature. He was simple, calm and courageous. He seldom lost his poise; pondered his problems slowly, made his decisions clearly and firmly; never yielded to ostentation nor coyly refrained from holding his rightful place with dignity. He was the son of a serf but stood calmly before the great without hesitation or nerves. But also - and this was the highest proof of his greatness - he knew the common man, felt his problems, followed his fate."</p>
<p>DuBois was, however, equally comfortable with religious/military dictatorships. He urged China to accept its Japanese liberators who were saving it, in part, from white aggression in DuBois' view.</p>
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		<title>By: the chaplain</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39036</link>
		<dc:creator>the chaplain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 19:06:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39036</guid>
		<description>Re: the DuBois-Washington debate, history has shown that DuBois called this one correctly. Washington did not recognize that economic equality was all of a piece with social and political equality. One was not going to come on its own; they all had to move forward together and reinforce each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: the DuBois-Washington debate, history has shown that DuBois called this one correctly. Washington did not recognize that economic equality was all of a piece with social and political equality. One was not going to come on its own; they all had to move forward together and reinforce each other.</p>
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		<title>By: TimJ</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39035</link>
		<dc:creator>TimJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39035</guid>
		<description>Virginia, you are correct about Communism and is probably the main reason the phrase &quot;One nation under God&quot; was inserted into the pledge of allegiance in 1954.   

On Chinese culture, not being an expert I can not reach definitive conclusions. But I can perhaps contribute a little anecdotal insight, no matter how slight.  My inlaws (Chinese wife) are both atheist, whereas my wife&#039;s grandmother is nominally Bhuddist. This amounts to mainly the ritual of setting out food for her deceased husband in a small shrine, and then eating it later.  Most of the other Chinese I&#039;ve interacted with are atheists though (may have more to do with education), with a few exceptions, such as Bhuddists or Taoists (been to a Taoist temple a few times with a friend, who doesn&#039;t take it too seriously, but appreciates some of the philosophical aspects). One notable exception was a convert to fundamentalist Christianity, which anecdotally does seem to be making some headway into China (can&#039;t back this up with hard evidence at the moment).  There also seems to be, among the general population, a tendency towards almost &quot;magical&quot; thinking.  For example, the number 4 sounds a little like death and so is considered an unlucky number.  Not too long ago, according to my wife, the government was trying to restrict certain ATM numbers from being used since so many people were choosing their PIN to be something like 8888 (8 being a lucky number).  My wife, although atheist, has a very strong tendency to think (as you suggest) in terms of karma, while simultaneously realizing that this is not the way the real world works. Of course, the whole blend of religious cultural influences in China is topic for a whole other lengthy discussion (and many books :) ), and I claim no real expertise.

Back on topic, it was great to hear about an African American free thinker, and I hope we will be seeing more out there soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Virginia, you are correct about Communism and is probably the main reason the phrase "One nation under God" was inserted into the pledge of allegiance in 1954.   </p>
<p>On Chinese culture, not being an expert I can not reach definitive conclusions. But I can perhaps contribute a little anecdotal insight, no matter how slight.  My inlaws (Chinese wife) are both atheist, whereas my wife's grandmother is nominally Bhuddist. This amounts to mainly the ritual of setting out food for her deceased husband in a small shrine, and then eating it later.  Most of the other Chinese I've interacted with are atheists though (may have more to do with education), with a few exceptions, such as Bhuddists or Taoists (been to a Taoist temple a few times with a friend, who doesn't take it too seriously, but appreciates some of the philosophical aspects). One notable exception was a convert to fundamentalist Christianity, which anecdotally does seem to be making some headway into China (can't back this up with hard evidence at the moment).  There also seems to be, among the general population, a tendency towards almost "magical" thinking.  For example, the number 4 sounds a little like death and so is considered an unlucky number.  Not too long ago, according to my wife, the government was trying to restrict certain ATM numbers from being used since so many people were choosing their PIN to be something like 8888 (8 being a lucky number).  My wife, although atheist, has a very strong tendency to think (as you suggest) in terms of karma, while simultaneously realizing that this is not the way the real world works. Of course, the whole blend of religious cultural influences in China is topic for a whole other lengthy discussion (and many books :) ), and I claim no real expertise.</p>
<p>Back on topic, it was great to hear about an African American free thinker, and I hope we will be seeing more out there soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39029</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 09:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39029</guid>
		<description>Atheism was probably rarer in the black community for the same reasons it was rare in the Jewish ghettos, and in Chinese culture too. Chinese is very uncomfortable about the idea of the naturalistic worldview where no deity is there to push the bad and reward the good too.

Atheism is also seen with unfavourable light because of its mistaken association with Communism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atheism was probably rarer in the black community for the same reasons it was rare in the Jewish ghettos, and in Chinese culture too. Chinese is very uncomfortable about the idea of the naturalistic worldview where no deity is there to push the bad and reward the good too.</p>
<p>Atheism is also seen with unfavourable light because of its mistaken association with Communism.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Skinner</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39028</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Skinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 08:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39028</guid>
		<description>Atheism was probably rarer in the black community for the same reasons it was rare in the Jewish ghettos- high insistance on conformity, church served a function that had no replacement, really poor conditions and lack of education.

I think the current situation isn&#039;t better (for black atheists, not the black community).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atheism was probably rarer in the black community for the same reasons it was rare in the Jewish ghettos- high insistance on conformity, church served a function that had no replacement, really poor conditions and lack of education.</p>
<p>I think the current situation isn't better (for black atheists, not the black community).</p>
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		<title>By: InTheImageOfDNA</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39026</link>
		<dc:creator>InTheImageOfDNA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 06:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39026</guid>
		<description>Apologies for the redundancy.  I didn&#039;t look closely at your linked first phrase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies for the redundancy.  I didn't look closely at your linked first phrase.</p>
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		<title>By: InTheImageOfDNA</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-contributions-of-freethinkers-iii.html#comment-39024</link>
		<dc:creator>InTheImageOfDNA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 06:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=839#comment-39024</guid>
		<description>A good take on this issue:

http://wordsofwrath.blogspot.com/2008/05/invisibility-of-black-atheist.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good take on this issue:</p>
<p><a href="http://wordsofwrath.blogspot.com/2008/05/invisibility-of-black-atheist.html" rel="nofollow">http://wordsofwrath.blogspot.com/2008/05/invisibility-of-black-atheist.html</a></p>
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