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	<title>Comments on: The Fading of the Church</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-68678</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-68678</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;An effective and useful system was dismantled before our eyes - and we stood by and watched.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, I suppose that the over-the-top percentages of ignorant people in America who actually think evolution is bunk is a rather good testament to the effectiveness and usefulness of religious &quot;education.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>An effective and useful system was dismantled before our eyes - and we stood by and watched.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, I suppose that the over-the-top percentages of ignorant people in America who actually think evolution is bunk is a rather good testament to the effectiveness and usefulness of religious "education."</p>
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		<title>By: Linda McLean</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-68674</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda McLean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-68674</guid>
		<description>I think that the Church has lost it&#039;s role - it used to be an educator - but now it is not needed for that. It used to provide Social Cohesion: now we have Facebook or Linked In. It used to be able to identify those in most need - now we have Social Workers. 
But there is a role for society, which we ignore at our peril. All we need is the glue. Robert was a non Christian in 1816:
&#039;Robert Owen often talked of the new Millennium; a time, he hoped, when society would be greatly improved. When he opened the Institute for the Formation of Character on New Year’s Day 1816, he gave an Address to the Inhabitants of New Lanark, in which he outlined his hopes for the Millennium, his plans, and his notion that education was the means of achieving a better and fairer society.

&quot;What ideas individuals may attach to the term &quot;Millennium&quot; I know not; but I know that society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, with health greatly improved, with little, if any misery, and with intelligence and happiness increased a hundredfold: AND NO OBSTACLE WHATSOEVER INTERVENES AT THIS MOMENT EXCEPT IGNORANCE to prevent such a state of society from becoming universal&quot;.&#039;(MY CAPS)

As they say, &quot;If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.&quot;
An effective and useful system was dismantled before our eyes - and we stood by and watched. It is not all about religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the Church has lost it's role - it used to be an educator - but now it is not needed for that. It used to provide Social Cohesion: now we have Facebook or Linked In. It used to be able to identify those in most need - now we have Social Workers.<br />
But there is a role for society, which we ignore at our peril. All we need is the glue. Robert was a non Christian in 1816:<br />
'Robert Owen often talked of the new Millennium; a time, he hoped, when society would be greatly improved. When he opened the Institute for the Formation of Character on New Year’s Day 1816, he gave an Address to the Inhabitants of New Lanark, in which he outlined his hopes for the Millennium, his plans, and his notion that education was the means of achieving a better and fairer society.</p>
<p>"What ideas individuals may attach to the term "Millennium" I know not; but I know that society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, with health greatly improved, with little, if any misery, and with intelligence and happiness increased a hundredfold: AND NO OBSTACLE WHATSOEVER INTERVENES AT THIS MOMENT EXCEPT IGNORANCE to prevent such a state of society from becoming universal".'(MY CAPS)</p>
<p>As they say, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."<br />
An effective and useful system was dismantled before our eyes - and we stood by and watched. It is not all about religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Tj</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-67455</link>
		<dc:creator>Tj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 07:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-67455</guid>
		<description>&quot;That would be a decline in North America and growth in South America (because there are statistics indicating that the Catholic church is losing ground in the US and Canada). South America is pretty much third world.&quot;

&quot;You may not have a problem with an intolerant church but that doesn&#039;t mean others find that kind of crap acceptable.&quot;

Preaching against intolerance while exhibiting a very smug intolerant attitude towards the rest of the world is bad form.

South America is not &quot;pretty much third world&quot;, it&#039;s largest countries are &quot;emergent&quot; and on the rise- the Yankees can&#039;t even strangle them these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"That would be a decline in North America and growth in South America (because there are statistics indicating that the Catholic church is losing ground in the US and Canada). South America is pretty much third world."</p>
<p>"You may not have a problem with an intolerant church but that doesn't mean others find that kind of crap acceptable."</p>
<p>Preaching against intolerance while exhibiting a very smug intolerant attitude towards the rest of the world is bad form.</p>
<p>South America is not "pretty much third world", it's largest countries are "emergent" and on the rise- the Yankees can't even strangle them these days.</p>
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		<title>By: Snoof</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-56118</link>
		<dc:creator>Snoof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-56118</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So, (to extend the metaphor) refusing to take drugs is taking a drug?&lt;/blockquote&gt;Exactly! And bald is a hair colour, and not collecting stamps is a hobby! Sheesh, you people. Don&#039;t you know anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, (to extend the metaphor) refusing to take drugs is taking a drug?</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly! And bald is a hair colour, and not collecting stamps is a hobby! Sheesh, you people. Don't you know anything?</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew Wilder</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-56086</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-56086</guid>
		<description>@Nes, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=_j9QeUoPOi4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Very nice!&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nes, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=_j9QeUoPOi4" rel="nofollow">Very nice!</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nes</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-56083</link>
		<dc:creator>Nes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-56083</guid>
		<description>So, (to extend the metaphor) refusing to take drugs is taking a drug?

Wow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, (to extend the metaphor) refusing to take drugs is taking a drug?</p>
<p>Wow.</p>
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		<title>By: Thumpalumpacus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-56060</link>
		<dc:creator>Thumpalumpacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2010 04:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-56060</guid>
		<description>Heh, Bill, you go on ahead, and nurture your preconceptions.  The longer you stay complacent, the more shocking shall be your disillusionment.  Have a great day!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh, Bill, you go on ahead, and nurture your preconceptions.  The longer you stay complacent, the more shocking shall be your disillusionment.  Have a great day!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-56052</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-56052</guid>
		<description>Ah, atheism, the  new opiate of the masses.  Seems like we always need one ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, atheism, the  new opiate of the masses.  Seems like we always need one ...</p>
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		<title>By: seathanaich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-48714</link>
		<dc:creator>seathanaich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-48714</guid>
		<description>What to do with old church buildings? I&#039;ve seen one turned into a music school and conservatory in Victoria, BC, Canada. In Toronto one is now the Hockey Hall of Fame. Many are turning into libraries, art galleries, and other public buildings - and beautiful ones at that. The only problem is that they are usually energy inefficient and costly to maintain. But in many cases the buildings themselves are worth preserving. over the short term we may see Muslim congregations buying old Christian churches, since Christianity will be only a small fringe group in Europe by the end of this century. However, Islam in Europe will fade away too after a few generations. Harmful and stupid superstition can&#039;t survive if rational thought is vigourously protected in a society as an alternative.

Religion is dying among educated, wealthy, peaceful societies. Even Muslim and Hindu immigrants become atheists within a few generations; after all, intelligence is not ethnically specific. The trend will only accelerate, unless we have serious social and economic disintigration due to climate change or the collapse of the fossil fuel economy (both very likely possibilities).

Totatlitarians can will in the short term, but they cannot last forever if people are willing to fight for freedom. Religion is on the wrong side of history, and atheism will destroy the current crop of religions as surely as those religions killed off all the older polytheisms and pantheons.

However, the need for humans to think that magic and the supernatural are real transcends religion, and is seen in horoscopes, belief in ghosts, alien abduction claims, and the need for people to claim that &quot;everything is for a purpose&quot;. Such superstition will prove more persistent than the individual religions. Also, most of the world will remain poor, which means that religion will persist for centuries yet in Africa and Asia, and probably South America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What to do with old church buildings? I've seen one turned into a music school and conservatory in Victoria, BC, Canada. In Toronto one is now the Hockey Hall of Fame. Many are turning into libraries, art galleries, and other public buildings - and beautiful ones at that. The only problem is that they are usually energy inefficient and costly to maintain. But in many cases the buildings themselves are worth preserving. over the short term we may see Muslim congregations buying old Christian churches, since Christianity will be only a small fringe group in Europe by the end of this century. However, Islam in Europe will fade away too after a few generations. Harmful and stupid superstition can't survive if rational thought is vigourously protected in a society as an alternative.</p>
<p>Religion is dying among educated, wealthy, peaceful societies. Even Muslim and Hindu immigrants become atheists within a few generations; after all, intelligence is not ethnically specific. The trend will only accelerate, unless we have serious social and economic disintigration due to climate change or the collapse of the fossil fuel economy (both very likely possibilities).</p>
<p>Totatlitarians can will in the short term, but they cannot last forever if people are willing to fight for freedom. Religion is on the wrong side of history, and atheism will destroy the current crop of religions as surely as those religions killed off all the older polytheisms and pantheons.</p>
<p>However, the need for humans to think that magic and the supernatural are real transcends religion, and is seen in horoscopes, belief in ghosts, alien abduction claims, and the need for people to claim that "everything is for a purpose". Such superstition will prove more persistent than the individual religions. Also, most of the world will remain poor, which means that religion will persist for centuries yet in Africa and Asia, and probably South America.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan Felipe</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-40274</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan Felipe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-40274</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;Catholic church. One of them, I feel certain, is that young Catholics feel increasingly disconnected from a church that continues to bash gays, exclude women from the priesthood, and preach against contraception. As society becomes increasingly liberal and tolerant, the Catholic church continues to cling obstinately to its irrational rules, and is accordingly being left in the dust.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree completely; in fact, I think thats probably the main reason why the decline of religion is much more apparent in the catholic church. Further evidence for this comes from the fact that, poll after poll, even the so called catholic persons have been shown to hold opinions that disagree completely with the Church regarding sexuality and moral issues. A recent poll in Argentina*, for example, had some really interesting results: 

While 76% of people in Argentina are catholics, 63% of them think abortion is justified in certain circumstances; 92% of the population agrees with comprehensive sex education in schools, 88% think that the government should promote contraception and 86% thinks they should be handed out for free.    

With the possible exception of abortion, most people I know agree with those issues as well. But this get even better: 48% of people think priest should be allowed to marry, and 42% believe women should be allowed to be priest!! Similar results are found in different countries, like Mexico and Spain. It&#039;s good to see that fortunately, few people take seriously the ridiculous and ultraconservative view of sexuality promoted by the catholic church. 

*Source: http://www.lacapital.com.ar/contenidos/2008/08/27/noticia_0047.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=""><p>Catholic church. One of them, I feel certain, is that young Catholics feel increasingly disconnected from a church that continues to bash gays, exclude women from the priesthood, and preach against contraception. As society becomes increasingly liberal and tolerant, the Catholic church continues to cling obstinately to its irrational rules, and is accordingly being left in the dust.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree completely; in fact, I think thats probably the main reason why the decline of religion is much more apparent in the catholic church. Further evidence for this comes from the fact that, poll after poll, even the so called catholic persons have been shown to hold opinions that disagree completely with the Church regarding sexuality and moral issues. A recent poll in Argentina*, for example, had some really interesting results: </p>
<p>While 76% of people in Argentina are catholics, 63% of them think abortion is justified in certain circumstances; 92% of the population agrees with comprehensive sex education in schools, 88% think that the government should promote contraception and 86% thinks they should be handed out for free.    </p>
<p>With the possible exception of abortion, most people I know agree with those issues as well. But this get even better: 48% of people think priest should be allowed to marry, and 42% believe women should be allowed to be priest!! Similar results are found in different countries, like Mexico and Spain. It's good to see that fortunately, few people take seriously the ridiculous and ultraconservative view of sexuality promoted by the catholic church. </p>
<p>*Source: <a href="http://www.lacapital.com.ar/contenidos/2008/08/27/noticia_0047.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lacapital.com.ar/contenidos/2008/08/27/noticia_0047.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: heliobates</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-39500</link>
		<dc:creator>heliobates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-39500</guid>
		<description>Oops. That last was a response to Matt and directed at &lt;i&gt;Arch&lt;/i&gt; not Adam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops. That last was a response to Matt and directed at <i>Arch</i> not Adam.</p>
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		<title>By: heliobates</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/09/the-fading-of-the-church.html#comment-39495</link>
		<dc:creator>heliobates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=838#comment-39495</guid>
		<description>@Matthew Wilder

&lt;blockquote&gt;...how could Christian doctrine accommodate the modern understanding of evolution?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Right on, bro!

Let&#039;s see. On the left side we have WMAP, the Standard Model of particle physics (99.99% experimentally verified), classical physics (99.999999% verified), modern organic chemistry, modern biology, the geologic column, isochron radiometric dating, proof from the Titan probe that complex polymers spontaneously form from available organics, a progression of fossils beginning with simple flatworms through tetrapod development, the dinosaurs, the KT extinction, the rise of mammals, the waves of Holocene gigantism and extinctions, the great ape lineages, DNA, increasing DNA sample sizes allowing us to &#039;map&#039; the genetic development of humans and our nearest primate cousins, modern medicine, and dozens of other mutually-reinforcing disciplines spanning 200+ years with millions of data points to support an understanding of our present condition that is almost completely congruent with all available observations.

Whatcha got on your side, Adam: warmed over Babylonian and Greek influences, &quot;In the beginning...&quot;, argument from ignorance and argument from personal incredulity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matthew Wilder</p>
<blockquote><p>...how could Christian doctrine accommodate the modern understanding of evolution?</p></blockquote>
<p>Right on, bro!</p>
<p>Let's see. On the left side we have WMAP, the Standard Model of particle physics (99.99% experimentally verified), classical physics (99.999999% verified), modern organic chemistry, modern biology, the geologic column, isochron radiometric dating, proof from the Titan probe that complex polymers spontaneously form from available organics, a progression of fossils beginning with simple flatworms through tetrapod development, the dinosaurs, the KT extinction, the rise of mammals, the waves of Holocene gigantism and extinctions, the great ape lineages, DNA, increasing DNA sample sizes allowing us to 'map' the genetic development of humans and our nearest primate cousins, modern medicine, and dozens of other mutually-reinforcing disciplines spanning 200+ years with millions of data points to support an understanding of our present condition that is almost completely congruent with all available observations.</p>
<p>Whatcha got on your side, Adam: warmed over Babylonian and Greek influences, "In the beginning...", argument from ignorance and argument from personal incredulity.</p>
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