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	<title>Comments on: On Faith Healing Delusions</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Adele</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39723</link>
		<dc:creator>Adele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39723</guid>
		<description>I think this is absolutely disgusting.  It&#039;s bad enough that religious institutions recieve tax-exempt status even WITHOUT this kind of child abuse.  This is absolutely something that has GOT to be stopped and had I the time or resources I would most certainly join jimspeiser in founding his organization.  Just a question - are there any similar organizations out there that I could donate to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is absolutely disgusting.  It's bad enough that religious institutions recieve tax-exempt status even WITHOUT this kind of child abuse.  This is absolutely something that has GOT to be stopped and had I the time or resources I would most certainly join jimspeiser in founding his organization.  Just a question - are there any similar organizations out there that I could donate to?</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39668</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 04:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39668</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s ironic you found the respective articles from RT and NYT, Leum. I would have expected them the other way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's ironic you found the respective articles from RT and NYT, Leum. I would have expected them the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Leum</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39655</link>
		<dc:creator>Leum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 03:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39655</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I honestly wonder, perhaps out of morbid curiosity, what a Christian Scientist would say to an amputee.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I did some research, and while I can&#039;t say what they tell amputees, I know what they tell people who need amputation (trigger warning, it isn&#039;t pretty, but none of the links have pictures, thank goodness):

From Christian Science Forums:

&lt;blockquote&gt;One experience I had was that a friend asked me to work on her mothers husbands &quot;spirit, as he is depressed.&quot; He was depressed because he had a diabetic wound and had been in the hospital for a long time and the DRs were now saying they had exhausted all possible treatments and had to amputate his foot.

...

Well, my friend called and said the Dr. had woken up the next morning and run into the room and said he had miraculously thought of a new treatment and no amputation was necessary. Now the patient is home and using a walker. (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.christianscience.com/forums/showpost.php?s=a2e0cbe8f66f92b1c4d383e2d0f45e44&amp;p=1977&amp;postcount=10&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

From Christian Science Churches of Ventura, California:

&lt;blockquote&gt;An infected leg was healed through the prayer of a practitioner. My husband, a hospital corpsman in the Navy, offered (but did not insist – for which I am very grateful) to take me to the hospital, as &lt;b&gt;he feared gangrene had set in&lt;/b&gt; and the possibility of amputation threatened. &lt;b&gt;This proved to be a time to take a firm stand for Christian Science treatment&lt;/b&gt;, and the healing came quickly. The autumn after this healing, I joined The Mother Church. (emphasis added, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.prayerthatheals.org/article.php?id=70&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

From Religious Tolerance:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Ashley King died in 1988 at the age of 12. Her parents, John and Catherine King had withdrawn her from her Phoenix, AZ school in 1987 because of &quot;a problem with her leg.&quot;  CPS gained temporary custody of the child and took her to the hospital. She had a tumor on her right leg that was 41 inches in circumference. The attending doctor estimated that she would have had a 55 to 60% chance of recovery if she had received prompt medical attention earlier. He recommended that her leg be amputated &quot;to reduce her pain in the time she had remaining.&quot; &lt;b&gt;The parents refused, and transferred her to a Christian Science nursing home where she received only non-medical care. She allegedly died in extreme pain.&lt;/b&gt; (emphasis added, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical2.htm&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Finally, a ray of hope from the New York Times:

&lt;blockquote&gt;...Mrs. Robinson injured her foot last July, whereupon blood poisoning set in; that being a Christian Scientist, she did not call in a physician, but about a week ago a surgeon was called in, who immediately amputated the leg above the ankle. Mrs. Robinson&#039;s neighbors said that Mr. Robinson called in the doctor. -There was a trained nurse at Mr. Robinson&#039;s home yesterday, and the members of the household whispered, &quot;Just as people not Christian Scientists do when some one is really physically ill.&quot; (&lt;a href=&quot;http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:-1NbL1YUAiQJ:query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html%3Fres%3DF70C17FE355E12738DDDAA0894DA415B868CF1D3+christian+science+amputation&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=1&amp;gl=us&amp;client=firefox-a&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I honestly wonder, perhaps out of morbid curiosity, what a Christian Scientist would say to an amputee.</p></blockquote>
<p>I did some research, and while I can't say what they tell amputees, I know what they tell people who need amputation (trigger warning, it isn't pretty, but none of the links have pictures, thank goodness):</p>
<p>From Christian Science Forums:</p>
<blockquote><p>One experience I had was that a friend asked me to work on her mothers husbands "spirit, as he is depressed." He was depressed because he had a diabetic wound and had been in the hospital for a long time and the DRs were now saying they had exhausted all possible treatments and had to amputate his foot.</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>Well, my friend called and said the Dr. had woken up the next morning and run into the room and said he had miraculously thought of a new treatment and no amputation was necessary. Now the patient is home and using a walker. (<a href="http://www.christianscience.com/forums/showpost.php?s=a2e0cbe8f66f92b1c4d383e2d0f45e44&amp;p=1977&amp;postcount=10" title="" rel="nofollow">source</a>)</p></blockquote>
<p>From Christian Science Churches of Ventura, California:</p>
<blockquote><p>An infected leg was healed through the prayer of a practitioner. My husband, a hospital corpsman in the Navy, offered (but did not insist – for which I am very grateful) to take me to the hospital, as <b>he feared gangrene had set in</b> and the possibility of amputation threatened. <b>This proved to be a time to take a firm stand for Christian Science treatment</b>, and the healing came quickly. The autumn after this healing, I joined The Mother Church. (emphasis added, <a href="http://www.prayerthatheals.org/article.php?id=70" title="" rel="nofollow">source</a>)</p></blockquote>
<p>From Religious Tolerance:</p>
<blockquote><p>Ashley King died in 1988 at the age of 12. Her parents, John and Catherine King had withdrawn her from her Phoenix, AZ school in 1987 because of "a problem with her leg."  CPS gained temporary custody of the child and took her to the hospital. She had a tumor on her right leg that was 41 inches in circumference. The attending doctor estimated that she would have had a 55 to 60% chance of recovery if she had received prompt medical attention earlier. He recommended that her leg be amputated "to reduce her pain in the time she had remaining." <b>The parents refused, and transferred her to a Christian Science nursing home where she received only non-medical care. She allegedly died in extreme pain.</b> (emphasis added, <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical2.htm" title="" rel="nofollow">source</a>)</p></blockquote>
<p>Finally, a ray of hope from the New York Times:</p>
<blockquote><p>...Mrs. Robinson injured her foot last July, whereupon blood poisoning set in; that being a Christian Scientist, she did not call in a physician, but about a week ago a surgeon was called in, who immediately amputated the leg above the ankle. Mrs. Robinson's neighbors said that Mr. Robinson called in the doctor. -There was a trained nurse at Mr. Robinson's home yesterday, and the members of the household whispered, "Just as people not Christian Scientists do when some one is really physically ill." (<a href="http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:-1NbL1YUAiQJ:query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html%3Fres%3DF70C17FE355E12738DDDAA0894DA415B868CF1D3+christian+science+amputation&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=1&amp;gl=us&amp;client=firefox-a" title="" rel="nofollow">source</a>)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39633</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39633</guid>
		<description>Brad,

&lt;blockquote&gt;I honestly wonder, perhaps out of morbid curiosity, what a Christian Scientist would say to an amputee.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Probably something like &quot;it only appears that your hand is missing, but it&#039;s still there - now come on, move those fingers!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,</p>
<blockquote><p>I honestly wonder, perhaps out of morbid curiosity, what a Christian Scientist would say to an amputee.</p></blockquote>
<p>Probably something like "it only appears that your hand is missing, but it's still there - now come on, move those fingers!"</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39632</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39632</guid>
		<description>I honestly wonder, perhaps out of morbid curiosity, what a Christian Scientist would say to an amputee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly wonder, perhaps out of morbid curiosity, what a Christian Scientist would say to an amputee.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39631</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39631</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;No, I imagine even cavemen took care of their injured and sick as best they could. They could at least do things like set bones or treat fevers, which is more than Christian Scientists are willing to do.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s just what I was getting at!

Those primitive cultures may not have had much knowledge of medicine, but at least they would try to fix broken bones or mix protective salves from local plants to treat wounds and make attempts to brew healing potices (the reliablity of such potices being highly questionable, of course) - but these dummies don&#039;t even go that far.  If you broke a bone, you&#039;re really fine and just have to walk it off; if you are burning up with fever, you just have to tough it out; if you&#039;re puking you guts out, just sit down and eat with the rest of the family.

Like I said before - it&#039;s a wonder that any of them are still alive in spite of their obliviousness to reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>No, I imagine even cavemen took care of their injured and sick as best they could. They could at least do things like set bones or treat fevers, which is more than Christian Scientists are willing to do.</p></blockquote>
<p>That's just what I was getting at!</p>
<p>Those primitive cultures may not have had much knowledge of medicine, but at least they would try to fix broken bones or mix protective salves from local plants to treat wounds and make attempts to brew healing potices (the reliablity of such potices being highly questionable, of course) - but these dummies don't even go that far.  If you broke a bone, you're really fine and just have to walk it off; if you are burning up with fever, you just have to tough it out; if you're puking you guts out, just sit down and eat with the rest of the family.</p>
<p>Like I said before - it's a wonder that any of them are still alive in spite of their obliviousness to reality.</p>
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		<title>By: bestonnet</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39610</link>
		<dc:creator>bestonnet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39610</guid>
		<description>Cavemen just didn&#039;t have the medical knowledge to treat anything that wouldn&#039;t be able to fix itself, all the things that Mary Baker Eddy cultists claim their members have been healed from that I&#039;ve heard of are conditions that go away over time if you do nothing (just as most things that get &#039;cured&#039; by quacks are self-limiting conditions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cavemen just didn't have the medical knowledge to treat anything that wouldn't be able to fix itself, all the things that Mary Baker Eddy cultists claim their members have been healed from that I've heard of are conditions that go away over time if you do nothing (just as most things that get 'cured' by quacks are self-limiting conditions).</p>
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		<title>By: Entomologista</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39609</link>
		<dc:creator>Entomologista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 07:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39609</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It&#039;s no different from back when we lived as hunter-gatherers without modern medicine, people died a lot back then (and the life expectancy was very low) but enough managed to survive and reproduce for us not to go extinct.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, I imagine even cavemen took care of their injured and sick as best they could. They could at least do things like set bones or treat fevers, which is more than Christian Scientists are willing to do. One of the reasons a larger number of them haven&#039;t died out is because they benefit from herd immunity. That means they at least survive most childhood illnesses to reach reproductive age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It's no different from back when we lived as hunter-gatherers without modern medicine, people died a lot back then (and the life expectancy was very low) but enough managed to survive and reproduce for us not to go extinct.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I imagine even cavemen took care of their injured and sick as best they could. They could at least do things like set bones or treat fevers, which is more than Christian Scientists are willing to do. One of the reasons a larger number of them haven't died out is because they benefit from herd immunity. That means they at least survive most childhood illnesses to reach reproductive age.</p>
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		<title>By: Leum</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39608</link>
		<dc:creator>Leum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 07:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39608</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...it seems to me as though they would rather die than admit that they have any problems (as such admissions are signs of &quot;sin&quot; in that fucked-up little world of theirs).&lt;/i&gt;

Absolutely. To make matters worse, I strongly suspect that the people who do die of kidney failure, appendicitis, or gangrene achieve martyr status and are held up as an example to the community (I know it happens with Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>...it seems to me as though they would rather die than admit that they have any problems (as such admissions are signs of "sin" in that fucked-up little world of theirs).</i></p>
<p>Absolutely. To make matters worse, I strongly suspect that the people who do die of kidney failure, appendicitis, or gangrene achieve martyr status and are held up as an example to the community (I know it happens with Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions).</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39604</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 03:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39604</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Not quite. (Not to say anything about all Muslims in general.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As far as the family was concerned, the daughter betrayed them - and thus no longer one of their own.  It soun ds crazy to folks like you or me, but that&#039;s what the whole &quot;death before dishonor&quot; mentallity gets you.

Come to think of it, those Christian &quot;Science&quot; folks seem to have a similar mentallity towards even more mundane things: it seems to me as though they would rather die than admit that they have any problems (as such admissions are signs of &quot;sin&quot; in that fucked-up little world of theirs).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Not quite. (Not to say anything about all Muslims in general.)</p></blockquote>
<p>As far as the family was concerned, the daughter betrayed them - and thus no longer one of their own.  It soun ds crazy to folks like you or me, but that's what the whole "death before dishonor" mentallity gets you.</p>
<p>Come to think of it, those Christian "Science" folks seem to have a similar mentallity towards even more mundane things: it seems to me as though they would rather die than admit that they have any problems (as such admissions are signs of "sin" in that fucked-up little world of theirs).</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39603</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 01:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39603</guid>
		<description>One last reference, for those who are still interested: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/SociologyofReligion/?view=usa&amp;ci=9780195306354&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children, and the Law&lt;/a&gt; by Shawn Peters. I found it browsing Internet Infidels today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One last reference, for those who are still interested: <a href="http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/SociologyofReligion/?view=usa&amp;ci=9780195306354" rel="nofollow">When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children, and the Law</a> by Shawn Peters. I found it browsing Internet Infidels today.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/10/on-faith-healing-delusions.html#comment-39602</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 00:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=852#comment-39602</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;At least in Islamic fundamentalist cultures they try to help each their own survive, ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Not quite&lt;/a&gt;. (Not to say anything about all Muslims in general.) I&#039;ll drop the tangent here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>At least in Islamic fundamentalist cultures they try to help each their own survive, ...</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights" rel="nofollow">Not quite</a>. (Not to say anything about all Muslims in general.) I'll drop the tangent here.</p>
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