Comments on: The Decline of the Catholic Church http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Fri, 19 Mar 2010 02:42:42 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Brad http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42234 Brad Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:18:20 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42234 I propose we make a Poe-Turing test to discern seriousness in online text. I propose we make a Poe-Turing test to discern seriousness in online text.

]]> By: MichaelNietzsche http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42188 MichaelNietzsche Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:21:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42188 On his next trip to the US, I'd like someone to send him to my house..... I'd give him the PRIVELEDGE of KISSING my ASS. Because, Until he uses the churchs' great wealth to help feed and house some of the world's poor, And, until he starts allowing the decemination of Birth-control information, and family planning information, and not just "VATICAN ROULETTE"; And until he allows that a woman has a right to make her own decision on the very difficult CHOICE of an abortion; And until he ADVOCATES sex education in all schools... to maybe prevent some unwanted pregnancies; And until he starts telling people the Condom use CAN help to slow the spread of AIDS in the world; he should SHUT the FUCK UP! He is an Enemy!!!! On his next trip to the US, I'd like someone to send him to my house..... I'd give him the PRIVELEDGE of KISSING my ASS. Because, Until he uses the churchs' great wealth to help feed and house some of the world's poor, And, until he starts allowing the decemination of Birth-control information, and family planning information, and not just "VATICAN ROULETTE"; And until he allows that a woman has a right to make her own decision on the very difficult CHOICE of an abortion; And until he ADVOCATES sex education in all schools... to maybe prevent some unwanted pregnancies; And until he starts telling people the Condom use CAN help to slow the spread of AIDS in the world; he should SHUT the FUCK UP! He is an Enemy!!!!

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42168 OMGF Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:31:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42168 Brad, I think you give them too much credit by calling it a "theory" unless you mean that in the colloquial sense of a "wild-assed guess." Brad,
I think you give them too much credit by calling it a "theory" unless you mean that in the colloquial sense of a "wild-assed guess."

]]> By: bestonnet http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42153 bestonnet Tue, 09 Dec 2008 06:02:07 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42153 <blockquote>Truth never changes. Truth does not fail.</blockquote>Those statements are quite correct but the problem is that you are also assuming that the Catholic church has the Truth which is very likely not correct. Whilst it is correct that truth doesn't change our approximation to the truth (which is the best we can do) very well does (it has tended to improve over time). The approximation to the truth that the Catholic church teaches is a very bad one compared to more modern approximations.

Truth never changes. Truth does not fail.

Those statements are quite correct but the problem is that you are also assuming that the Catholic church has the Truth which is very likely not correct.

Whilst it is correct that truth doesn't change our approximation to the truth (which is the best we can do) very well does (it has tended to improve over time). The approximation to the truth that the Catholic church teaches is a very bad one compared to more modern approximations.

]]> By: Tim Hogan http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42151 Tim Hogan Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:57:23 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42151 The Pope has spoken "ex cathedra" only twice: the Assumption of Mary, and; that Mary was conceived without sin. These beliefs, along with the Nicean Creed, form the fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church. I see the trap that the Church leaders have fallen into is exactly what Bowen has implied, one of relativism which the leaders themselves decry. If the Church is "in" but, not "of" this world, how may its leaders proscribe voting in favor, or against, a particular candidate? Will the Roman Catholic Church leaders now require that the facts of any electoral issue in the US or elsewhere are solely to determined by magisterial fiat, subject to sanction? I have written about this on another site: http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/11/15/catholic-mccain-voters-are-going-to-hell/ I do not believe Catholics must support the overturn of Roe v. Wade, oppose FOCA, and many other of the shibboleths run out to scare people every two or four years to get the faithful to vote a certain way. If Catholics resolve issues with compassion and mercy, not recrimination and demagoguery, we will have a greater ability to make the world safe and well for our children. The Pope has spoken "ex cathedra" only twice: the Assumption of Mary, and; that Mary was conceived without sin. These beliefs, along with the Nicean Creed, form the fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church.

I see the trap that the Church leaders have fallen into is exactly what Bowen has implied, one of relativism which the leaders themselves decry. If the Church is "in" but, not "of" this world, how may its leaders proscribe voting in favor, or against, a particular candidate?

Will the Roman Catholic Church leaders now require that the facts of any electoral issue in the US or elsewhere are solely to determined by magisterial fiat, subject to sanction?

I have written about this on another site:

http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/11/15/catholic-mccain-voters-are-going-to-hell/

I do not believe Catholics must support the overturn of Roe v. Wade, oppose FOCA, and many other of the shibboleths run out to scare people every two or four years to get the faithful to vote a certain way. If Catholics resolve issues with compassion and mercy, not recrimination and demagoguery, we will have a greater ability to make the world safe and well for our children.

]]> By: Brad http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42150 Brad Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:55:43 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42150 <blockquote>The Catholic Church has definitive teachings. Though some choose to dissent, those teachings remain.</blockquote> You mean those teachings that evolved over time and were exclusively selected/interpreted by clergy in power throughout church history? <blockquote>The "solution", or better yet the vocation, is to fidelity and holiness.</blockquote> Judging by the current and past state of affairs, that's no solution at all. The only solution the Catholic Church has is but a <a href="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm" rel="nofollow">theory</a> which states that all people have consciences leading them to a grand, singular morality made up by God. (I'd really like to see how psychopaths fit into that theory, being without conscience and uncaused by materialistic society and all.)

The Catholic Church has definitive teachings. Though some choose to dissent, those teachings remain.

You mean those teachings that evolved over time and were exclusively selected/interpreted by clergy in power throughout church history?

The "solution", or better yet the vocation, is to fidelity and holiness.

Judging by the current and past state of affairs, that's no solution at all. The only solution the Catholic Church has is but a theory which states that all people have consciences leading them to a grand, singular morality made up by God. (I'd really like to see how psychopaths fit into that theory, being without conscience and uncaused by materialistic society and all.)

]]> By: Arch http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42148 Arch Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:40:33 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42148 The "solution", or better yet the vocation, is to fidelity and holiness. The "solution", or better yet the vocation, is to fidelity and holiness.

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42138 Ebonmuse Tue, 09 Dec 2008 04:03:53 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42138 <blockquote>The Catholic Church has definitive teachings. Though some choose to dissent, those teachings remain.</blockquote> Any sect or person on earth could say the same. Your worry was that people would not agree on what actions are moral, but neither you nor your church have a solution to that.

The Catholic Church has definitive teachings. Though some choose to dissent, those teachings remain.

Any sect or person on earth could say the same. Your worry was that people would not agree on what actions are moral, but neither you nor your church have a solution to that.

]]> By: Arch http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42133 Arch Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:47:20 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42133 Ebon, The Catholic Church has definitive teachings. Though some choose to dissent, those teachings remain. Truth never changes. Truth does not fail. Arch Ebon,
The Catholic Church has definitive teachings. Though some choose to dissent, those teachings remain.
Truth never changes. Truth does not fail.
Arch

]]> By: bestonnet http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42131 bestonnet Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:29:00 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42131 Arch:<blockquote>If an individual is an autonomous lawgiver to themself, how will we not end up with each person coming up with their own morality?</blockquote>That's the best we can do, we just have to accept it. Arch:
If an individual is an autonomous lawgiver to themself, how will we not end up with each person coming up with their own morality?

That's the best we can do, we just have to accept it.

]]> By: Ebonmuse http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42130 Ebonmuse Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:15:38 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42130 I hate to break it to you, Arch, but there is <i>already</i> vast and pervasive disagreement over moral dilemmas among religious people - even within denominations, even within the Catholic church. Your proffered solution is a failure before getting out of the gate. I hate to break it to you, Arch, but there is already vast and pervasive disagreement over moral dilemmas among religious people - even within denominations, even within the Catholic church. Your proffered solution is a failure before getting out of the gate.

]]> By: Arch http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html#comment-42117 Arch Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:03:04 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=885#comment-42117 <blockquote> The fact that Kant argued that individuals must be autonomous lawgivers to themselves in no way means that each person can make up their own morality. </blockquote> If an individual is an autonomous lawgiver to themself, how will we not end up with each person coming up with their own morality? Without an objective standard of moral authority, how can one know the truth? Moral disagreement is inevitable if we are our own lawgivers.

The fact that Kant argued that individuals must be autonomous lawgivers to themselves in no way means that each person can make up their own morality.

If an individual is an autonomous lawgiver to themself, how will we not end up with each person coming up with their own morality? Without an objective standard of moral authority, how can one know the truth? Moral disagreement is inevitable if we are our own lawgivers.

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