Comments on: Faith Comes First http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:16:58 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: mikespeir http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-44805 mikespeir Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:02:49 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-44805 As a Christian, I used to see evidence for God everywhere. I interpreted every little thing, especially anything unusual, so as to ratify my beliefs. Then I would exclaim to myself, "See? It really is true!" But somewhere deep inside I knew what I was doing. Some part of me, some level I tried in vain to subdue, would admit, cringing, "No, it isn't." As a Christian, I used to see evidence for God everywhere. I interpreted every little thing, especially anything unusual, so as to ratify my beliefs. Then I would exclaim to myself, "See? It really is true!" But somewhere deep inside I knew what I was doing. Some part of me, some level I tried in vain to subdue, would admit, cringing, "No, it isn't."

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-44802 OMGF Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:24:29 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-44802 <blockquote>It's not that God withholds from unbelief; it's that unbelief cannot see what faith can.</blockquote> IOW, if you convince yourself that you're seeing a miracle, then you can "see" a miracle. This is begging the question. <blockquote>It is true that faith is what can see God, and also that evidence is seen by faith...</blockquote> If one needs to already believe the "evidence" is evidence before it can be seen as such, then it's not actually evidence, it's begging the question. <blockquote>...it is not true that if God showed clear evidence to all men they would then believe...</blockquote> Due to god's alleged omniscience, he would know what "evidence" all of us need to see in order to believe. So, if he truly wanted us all to believe, he could present us all with the evidence that we need. I think we can conclude from this that the evidence is not clear and god does not want us all to believe. <blockquote>Disbelief follows primarily denial.</blockquote> You've got it backwards here. Atheists are not saying, "I don't want to believe in god and I deny that he exists. Now, I don't believe in him, yay!" We aren't denying god, we don't see the "evidence" that you claim exists (and which you haven't presented BTW - why is it that theists always tell us of this overwhelming evidence for god and never get around to presenting it?)

It's not that God withholds from unbelief; it's that unbelief cannot see what faith can.

IOW, if you convince yourself that you're seeing a miracle, then you can "see" a miracle. This is begging the question.

It is true that faith is what can see God, and also that evidence is seen by faith...

If one needs to already believe the "evidence" is evidence before it can be seen as such, then it's not actually evidence, it's begging the question.

...it is not true that if God showed clear evidence to all men they would then believe...

Due to god's alleged omniscience, he would know what "evidence" all of us need to see in order to believe. So, if he truly wanted us all to believe, he could present us all with the evidence that we need. I think we can conclude from this that the evidence is not clear and god does not want us all to believe.

Disbelief follows primarily denial.

You've got it backwards here. Atheists are not saying, "I don't want to believe in god and I deny that he exists. Now, I don't believe in him, yay!" We aren't denying god, we don't see the "evidence" that you claim exists (and which you haven't presented BTW - why is it that theists always tell us of this overwhelming evidence for god and never get around to presenting it?)

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-44801 Alex Weaver Wed, 04 Mar 2009 08:47:29 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-44801 <blockquote>It's not that God withholds from unbelief; it's that unbelief cannot see what faith can. Miracles can and do happen in front of both believers and non, but what one man can and will see another man can't and won't. It is true that faith is what can see God, and also that evidence is seen by faith; it is not true that if God showed clear evidence to all men they would then believe, because he already has and still many first deny them and then do not believe. Disbelief follows primarily denial.</blockquote> 1) this is mindless boilerplate and 2) evidence for any of these assertions?

It's not that God withholds from unbelief; it's that unbelief cannot see what faith can. Miracles can and do happen in front of both believers and non, but what one man can and will see another man can't and won't. It is true that faith is what can see God, and also that evidence is seen by faith; it is not true that if God showed clear evidence to all men they would then believe, because he already has and still many first deny them and then do not believe. Disbelief follows primarily denial.

1) this is mindless boilerplate and 2) evidence for any of these assertions?

]]> By: Kimberly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-44795 Kimberly Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:43:07 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-44795 It's not that God withholds from unbelief; it's that unbelief cannot see what faith can. Miracles can and do happen in front of both believers and non, but what one man can and will see another man can't and won't. It is true that faith is what can see God, and also that evidence is seen by faith; it is not true that if God showed clear evidence to all men they would then believe, because he already has and still many first deny them and then do not believe. Disbelief follows primarily denial. It's not that God withholds from unbelief; it's that unbelief cannot see what faith can. Miracles can and do happen in front of both believers and non, but what one man can and will see another man can't and won't. It is true that faith is what can see God, and also that evidence is seen by faith; it is not true that if God showed clear evidence to all men they would then believe, because he already has and still many first deny them and then do not believe. Disbelief follows primarily denial.

]]> By: Amanda http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-41712 Amanda Fri, 28 Nov 2008 04:49:39 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-41712 God supposedly gave us this amazing rational mind, which we can apply to all things EXCEPT that handful of questions that are REALLY important. For those questions, we must cast rationality aside and just have faith. I've always thought that's a dirty trick and I want no part of it. And the whole "god works in mysterious ways." Like giving little kids cancer. I want no part of a plan where that happens. NO THANKS, GOD! God supposedly gave us this amazing rational mind, which we can apply to all things EXCEPT that handful of questions that are REALLY important. For those questions, we must cast rationality aside and just have faith.

I've always thought that's a dirty trick and I want no part of it.

And the whole "god works in mysterious ways." Like giving little kids cancer. I want no part of a plan where that happens. NO THANKS, GOD!

]]> By: Virginia http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-40971 Virginia Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:52:27 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-40971 OMGF: well parables will then be like fairy tales with good lessons, except you claim that "intervening god" existed -- so why then you dismiss existence of Zeus, Ra etc ? OMGF: well parables will then be like fairy tales with good lessons, except you claim that "intervening god" existed -- so why then you dismiss existence of Zeus, Ra etc ?

]]> By: Virginia http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-40970 Virginia Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:50:43 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-40970 I have gone through a number of tough debates with Christians and theist on similar logic. Basically they will argue by one or more of the following (1) Miracles, or supernatural stuffs (e.g. virgin birth) or apparently immoral stuff (God order killings) are for ones that have much faith in God and the spirituality (2) That their logic is "not requiring evidence or reason to believe" in order to believe -- which I called "superstition" (3) That because they can give an answer to questions about live after death, where man/universe come from (regardless if the answer squares with the reality) -- they want that answer (4) To debunk their faith is to destroy their hope --- which is cruel !!! How can you reason with them !!???? They are very prepared to ignore facts that goes against their belief -- not just faith comes first, "faith" is every and the only thing that matters I have gone through a number of tough debates with Christians and theist on similar logic. Basically they will argue by one or more of the following
(1) Miracles, or supernatural stuffs (e.g. virgin birth) or apparently immoral stuff (God order killings) are for ones that have much faith in God and the spirituality
(2) That their logic is "not requiring evidence or reason to believe" in order to believe -- which I called "superstition"
(3) That because they can give an answer to questions about live after death, where man/universe come from (regardless if the answer squares with the reality) -- they want that answer
(4) To debunk their faith is to destroy their hope --- which is cruel !!!
How can you reason with them !!???? They are very prepared to ignore facts that goes against their belief -- not just faith comes first, "faith" is every and the only thing that matters

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-40938 OMGF Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:54:47 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-40938 And, what's with labeling everything that we know didn't happen as some sort of parable? The Bible certainly doesn't present it as parable. It presents it as something that happened to real people. In most parables, the characters in the parable don't interact with real, live people, as would be the case in this situation. And, what's with labeling everything that we know didn't happen as some sort of parable? The Bible certainly doesn't present it as parable. It presents it as something that happened to real people. In most parables, the characters in the parable don't interact with real, live people, as would be the case in this situation.

]]> By: OMGF http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-40937 OMGF Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:51:21 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-40937 Of course they never occurred, else we would have some historical documentation on these events and some evidence. That doesn't do anything to counter the point that the "parable" shows god intervening in the affairs of humans and showing himself through miracles then, but not now. Of course they never occurred, else we would have some historical documentation on these events and some evidence. That doesn't do anything to counter the point that the "parable" shows god intervening in the affairs of humans and showing himself through miracles then, but not now.

]]> By: John http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-40916 John Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:34:31 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-40916 Ridger, "God had no problem setting up Egypt & Pharaoh to be wiped out precisely so that he could prove his existence, back in the day. How are the mighty fallen" These events, Charlton Heston notwithstanding, never ocurred. This is a parable - do yourself a favor and restudy The Bible in that context. The precepts regarding Pharaoh and Egypt are all over the Bible. This is acually a fascinating study. Ridger,

"God had no problem setting up Egypt & Pharaoh to be wiped out precisely so that he could prove his existence, back in the day. How are the mighty fallen"

These events, Charlton Heston notwithstanding, never ocurred.
This is a parable - do yourself a favor and restudy The Bible in that context.
The precepts regarding Pharaoh and Egypt are all over the Bible. This is acually a fascinating study.

]]> By: heliobates http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-40905 heliobates Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:51:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-40905 <blockquote>As I said this I do not claim this as miracle or proof, just that we may sometimes receive clues to our environment that may let us know something once in a while.</blockquote>Is it possible that you're confabulating events in your memory? This is one of the exceptions to the "assumption" cl was talking about, and why I insist that the strength of scientific empiricism is that it does not rely on individual observation but insists on repeatability and collaboration. In the example you're providing, no one, not even you, can explain what was going on and <i>you've</i> got a ways to go before you establish that something happened in the first place.

As I said this I do not claim this as miracle or proof, just that we may sometimes receive clues to our environment that may let us know something once in a while.

Is it possible that you're confabulating events in your memory?

This is one of the exceptions to the "assumption" cl was talking about, and why I insist that the strength of scientific empiricism is that it does not rely on individual observation but insists on repeatability and collaboration.

In the example you're providing, no one, not even you, can explain what was going on and you've got a ways to go before you establish that something happened in the first place.

]]> By: Alex Weaver http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/faith-comes-first.html#comment-40903 Alex Weaver Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:26:19 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=725#comment-40903 Ok, I've held off long enough... <blockquote>Faith Comes First</blockquote> ...no wonder the skeptics aren't satisfied. *ducks* Ok, I've held off long enough...

Faith Comes First

...no wonder the skeptics aren't satisfied.

*ducks*

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