car is backed in, the guy is looking for oral, if the car is parked the other way, he is looking for anal. Nice place to bring your kids. And you want to make marriage OK among this group?

Did "John" ever answer as to why he knows this?

Forgive me, there are two "Johns" talking about homosexuality from a similar perspective, so that "D" didn't register with me.

Okay, John D, I'm up for allowing an objective case against gay marriage.

I am willing to allow you aren't a bigot if you present good argument, but I think you have already shown a repulsion of homosexuality within your writings. Witness this all from a single comment of yours:

homosexual lifestyle is abnormal by definition

wrong in their genetic make-up

the way some homo males talk

allow them to officially marry and adopt kids - NO WAY!!!!

disgusting to most straights

images conjured-up in my mind are revolting

car is backed in, the guy is looking for oral, if the car is parked the other way, he is looking for anal. Nice place to bring your kids. And you want to make marriage OK among this group?

bestiality, another disgusting behaviour. Will we have bestiality pride marches someday?

It was your plainly obvious attempt to make "this group" out to be foreign, disgusting, and revolting. So bring out those "reasonable and sound arguments."

I left out "pathological, paranoid aversion to change of any sort."

Traditional social values were born from, and wholly based on, religious ideals. Even in the recent past, these values were directly attributed to the biblical worldview, and anything outside of bible sanctioned behavior was considered an evil that would destroy society and make people immoral. Many still believe in the supremacy of the traditional way because of it's biblical roots, and will proudly say that changing these is an affront to god, and will bring the destruction of society.

But what about Secular Americans? The ones that don't hold religious beliefs dear?

Secular people that fear gay marriage will cause negative social change may not even realize that the beliefs that created (and still support) the traditional familial/societal structures have biblical foundations. All they know is that gay marriage seems wrong, they are uncomfortable with it, or they feel it is unnatural. Where do you think these feelings come from?

Rational, secular thought, not influenced by religious belief/tradition, does not support the position of gay people as second hand citizens, undeserving of legal protection and equality. Do you really think that gays would be denied human rights without hundreds of years of religious teaching describing gays as an "abomination against god" (etc.)? The very reason gay marriage is objectionable, even now, has everything to do with religion, whether the person objecting realizes it or not.

In many ways, Secular society has evolved, and freed itself from the direct influence of religious belief. Many values and structures still remain from the days biblical law ruled society, and even when they are no longer directly linked to their religious base, they influence our thought and behavior. Removing a long standing belief can take several generations, or more, and we have only just started to see the world in a rational way (some people anyway).

Rational thinking, without religious belief, will change traditional values, and the structures that have been the building blocks of society for centuries. The most visible of these changes is the equal status of women in the Western world; their submission and low position was also a deeply held religious belief that was part of our society for many years. The fight against women's liberation was fought by both religious followers, and those influenced by a society built on religion. Consider the countries that continue to view women as evil temptresses, that need to be subjugated to men They still follow biblical (and other books)law/tradition, and are also virulently anti-gay. Places where rational thought and secular philosophy have the strongest influence, these traditions are no longer upheld.

America's Christian fundamentalism is the roadblock to rational belief, and the evolution and right that come with it.

StaceyJW

ie, are any of you willing to allow that I might not be a bigot, even though I take a different view from yours? Or that my opposition to gay marriage might be based on what I take to be reasonable and sound arguments, not visceral repulsion or blind prejudice?

I'm going to have to second OMGF's "no." I've never heard an argument against gay marriage or gay relationships that was not based on visceral repulsion or blind prejudice, I can't imagine what such an argument would be, and I've heard enough arguments that claimed not to be but obviously were to be highly skeptical of that pattern being ever being broken. As far as I can see, there are only two motives for forbidding state recognition of same-sex civil marriages (the attempts to muddy the issue by pretending this is about any given church's internal marriage policies notwithstanding), are first, bigotry against gays and a desire to keep them in a second-class citizen status, and second, the (true) belief that allowing same-sex marriages necessarily affirms that marriage consists of a legal contract and personal commitment between consenting equal adults, rather than of a man taking possession of a woman (coupled to the false belief that this is a bad thing). I have no reason to anticipate any other motive ever being produced.

The belief that gays should not marry is based SOLELY on religious tradition

I don't think that's wholly true. It seems that people, whether religious or not so much, tend to hold to comfortable, traditional social values instead of embark on newer social territory. I think the secular tendencies against gay marriage rights somewhat lend apparent credence or legitimacy to religious tradition.