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	<title>Comments on: All Things in Moderation</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: bbk</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42990</link>
		<dc:creator>bbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42990</guid>
		<description>I believe that an ongoing fulfillment of personal goals is the key to happiness.  I don&#039;t believe in moderation as such, except that too much of something may no longer fulfill any goals.  And I&#039;m not one to judge what those goals are.  If someone is a great industrialist and the goals they set for themselves happen to make them excessively wealthy, I won&#039;t say that they&#039;re not happy on the basis that they&#039;re not moderating their wealth.

I think that this is markedly different from the Jeffersonian &quot;rich simplicity&quot;.  I think that happiness, unless it is constantly worked on, will just go away.  Therefore, I don&#039;t believe that there is a sort of achievable Nirvana that, once established, will provide lasting pleasure.  Once attained, the original goal is useless and new goals have to be set.  Nirvana is therefore a paradox.  It is a mystical promise of transcendence, that, once achieved, will eradicate the need to set any further goals for oneself.  But it is nothing more than a goal itself.  So if the goal is to have no further wants or desires, then why pursue it in the first place?

Moderation is similarly frustrating to me.  Who wakes up one day and says to himself, &quot;Oh look, I am so moderate.  That makes me happy.  I&#039;ll just keep being moderate.&quot;? Is it really one of those transcendent goals that, once achieved, serves to bring enduring happiness?  And what kind of moderation is it supposed to be?  Should a man only pursue moderately good looking women, vote for moderately honest politicians, and eat moderately well prepared food?  Moderation can easily turn into mediocrity.  I believe that it&#039;s almost certainly the same thing.  It&#039;s one thing to talk about the moderation of alcohol and fatty foods because they are specific things with well-known negative consequences when taken to excess.  But is it enough to not drink too much or eat too much in order to reach one&#039;s full potential as a human being?  I don&#039;t think so.  Moderation is a little piece of advice given to beginners before they learn the ropes, but after that it&#039;s useless.  While Nirvana is the goal of having no goals, moderation is the goal of having mediocre goals.

I don&#039;t think that Jefferson serves as a good example of his own ideal.  He was an extremely accomplished man and he never grew complacent.  He may have taken pride in the simple pleasures of life, but he never actually stopped at making them the whole of his pursuits.  If he had, I think he would have found himself restless and unhappy.  Instead, he was rich, powerful, and brilliant.  He almost certainly attained his full potential as a human being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that an ongoing fulfillment of personal goals is the key to happiness.  I don't believe in moderation as such, except that too much of something may no longer fulfill any goals.  And I'm not one to judge what those goals are.  If someone is a great industrialist and the goals they set for themselves happen to make them excessively wealthy, I won't say that they're not happy on the basis that they're not moderating their wealth.</p>
<p>I think that this is markedly different from the Jeffersonian "rich simplicity".  I think that happiness, unless it is constantly worked on, will just go away.  Therefore, I don't believe that there is a sort of achievable Nirvana that, once established, will provide lasting pleasure.  Once attained, the original goal is useless and new goals have to be set.  Nirvana is therefore a paradox.  It is a mystical promise of transcendence, that, once achieved, will eradicate the need to set any further goals for oneself.  But it is nothing more than a goal itself.  So if the goal is to have no further wants or desires, then why pursue it in the first place?</p>
<p>Moderation is similarly frustrating to me.  Who wakes up one day and says to himself, "Oh look, I am so moderate.  That makes me happy.  I'll just keep being moderate."? Is it really one of those transcendent goals that, once achieved, serves to bring enduring happiness?  And what kind of moderation is it supposed to be?  Should a man only pursue moderately good looking women, vote for moderately honest politicians, and eat moderately well prepared food?  Moderation can easily turn into mediocrity.  I believe that it's almost certainly the same thing.  It's one thing to talk about the moderation of alcohol and fatty foods because they are specific things with well-known negative consequences when taken to excess.  But is it enough to not drink too much or eat too much in order to reach one's full potential as a human being?  I don't think so.  Moderation is a little piece of advice given to beginners before they learn the ropes, but after that it's useless.  While Nirvana is the goal of having no goals, moderation is the goal of having mediocre goals.</p>
<p>I don't think that Jefferson serves as a good example of his own ideal.  He was an extremely accomplished man and he never grew complacent.  He may have taken pride in the simple pleasures of life, but he never actually stopped at making them the whole of his pursuits.  If he had, I think he would have found himself restless and unhappy.  Instead, he was rich, powerful, and brilliant.  He almost certainly attained his full potential as a human being.</p>
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		<title>By: Leum</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42930</link>
		<dc:creator>Leum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42930</guid>
		<description>Christians don&#039;t hold to the Jewish dietary laws, which they see as being fulfilled or completed or superseded* by Christ. Jews hold to them (and Muslims hold to a much looser set of dietary laws) but for Jews it&#039;s often as much about respecting your ancestors and being a member of a culture than about fearing God&#039;s wrath (Judaism really isn&#039;t a religion, it&#039;s a culture that contains a religion and you can&#039;t really worship God as a Jew if you don&#039;t live as a Jew).

*The word used varies from sect to sect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christians don't hold to the Jewish dietary laws, which they see as being fulfilled or completed or superseded* by Christ. Jews hold to them (and Muslims hold to a much looser set of dietary laws) but for Jews it's often as much about respecting your ancestors and being a member of a culture than about fearing God's wrath (Judaism really isn't a religion, it's a culture that contains a religion and you can't really worship God as a Jew if you don't live as a Jew).</p>
<p>*The word used varies from sect to sect.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul S</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42923</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 18:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42923</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always been astonished at the way &quot;believers&quot; still choose to adhere to the dietary restrictions placed on them from a book written by wandering nomads in the Bronze Age. It&#039;s also telling that when defending God&#039;s deplorable actions against various tribes in the OT, Christians use the old &quot;you have to take these stories in the context of the times in which they were written.&quot; But they never stop to think that these dietary restrictions were simply &quot;beliefs&quot; held by ignorant men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've always been astonished at the way "believers" still choose to adhere to the dietary restrictions placed on them from a book written by wandering nomads in the Bronze Age. It's also telling that when defending God's deplorable actions against various tribes in the OT, Christians use the old "you have to take these stories in the context of the times in which they were written." But they never stop to think that these dietary restrictions were simply "beliefs" held by ignorant men.</p>
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		<title>By: terrence</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42911</link>
		<dc:creator>terrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42911</guid>
		<description>I think it was W.C. Fields (or not) who said, &quot;Moderation in all things - but not to excess&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it was W.C. Fields (or not) who said, "Moderation in all things - but not to excess"</p>
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		<title>By: Mathew Wilder</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42909</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathew Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42909</guid>
		<description>@ journalnous: Nietzsche has some insightful things to say regarding the urge to self-denial. You should check out &lt;i&gt;Beyond Good and Evil&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;On the Genealogy of Morals&lt;/i&gt;.

@ db0: Plato was not a Stoic. You&#039;re right, though, that Stoics (and others) mocked Epicureans. Quite unfairly, IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ journalnous: Nietzsche has some insightful things to say regarding the urge to self-denial. You should check out <i>Beyond Good and Evil</i> and <i>On the Genealogy of Morals</i>.</p>
<p>@ db0: Plato was not a Stoic. You're right, though, that Stoics (and others) mocked Epicureans. Quite unfairly, IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Valhar2000</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42908</link>
		<dc:creator>Valhar2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42908</guid>
		<description>In fact, oftentimes, when I hear arguments in favour of the idea of self-effacement, they boil down to a dire warning of what I just said, creating a false dichotomy by ignoring the moderate way that Ebonmuse proposes. That and some rubbish about god or the spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact, oftentimes, when I hear arguments in favour of the idea of self-effacement, they boil down to a dire warning of what I just said, creating a false dichotomy by ignoring the moderate way that Ebonmuse proposes. That and some rubbish about god or the spirit.</p>
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		<title>By: Valhar2000</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42907</link>
		<dc:creator>Valhar2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42907</guid>
		<description>And let&#039;s not forget an even more obvious reason to be moderate: you need to work in order to obtain the things that give you pleasure. If you have too much pleasure you can&#039;t work, and then you are left with nothing. And this statement holds for many definitions of &quot;work&quot; and &quot;pleasure&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And let's not forget an even more obvious reason to be moderate: you need to work in order to obtain the things that give you pleasure. If you have too much pleasure you can't work, and then you are left with nothing. And this statement holds for many definitions of "work" and "pleasure".</p>
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		<title>By: Prof.V.N.K.Kumar (India)</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42901</link>
		<dc:creator>Prof.V.N.K.Kumar (India)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 04:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42901</guid>
		<description>&quot;We should not promote thoughtless indulgence, but we can teach that people can partake responsibly in the good things of life&quot;

You are absolutely right, Adam. Modern thinkers will give three reasons why moderation in pleasures is required. First, Neurologically, too much pleasure overloads the brain&#039;s pleasure-centres, prohibiting further sensations and depletes the feel-good neuro-transmitters serotonin and dopamine. Second, psychologically, it creates inflated expectations and a sense of boredom ( Hedonic treadmill). Third, physiologically, overindulgence in recreational substances like alcohol, nicotine or narcotics and even food creates tolerance, addiction or unhealthy obesity.

As usual you have written a good piece and I agree that all things must be in moderation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"We should not promote thoughtless indulgence, but we can teach that people can partake responsibly in the good things of life"</p>
<p>You are absolutely right, Adam. Modern thinkers will give three reasons why moderation in pleasures is required. First, Neurologically, too much pleasure overloads the brain's pleasure-centres, prohibiting further sensations and depletes the feel-good neuro-transmitters serotonin and dopamine. Second, psychologically, it creates inflated expectations and a sense of boredom ( Hedonic treadmill). Third, physiologically, overindulgence in recreational substances like alcohol, nicotine or narcotics and even food creates tolerance, addiction or unhealthy obesity.</p>
<p>As usual you have written a good piece and I agree that all things must be in moderation.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42899</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 02:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42899</guid>
		<description>BTW, it&#039;s not just theologians who slandered and hated Epicurism. The Stoics (Plato and co) of Ancient Greece were really opposed to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, it's not just theologians who slandered and hated Epicurism. The Stoics (Plato and co) of Ancient Greece were really opposed to it.</p>
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		<title>By: the chaplain</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42897</link>
		<dc:creator>the chaplain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 00:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42897</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a nice post. It&#039;s no surprise that theologians have scorned and slandered Epicurus. If they presented his ideas fairly, those ideas would provide an attractive alternative to the stifling dogma that theists routinely push on people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a nice post. It's no surprise that theologians have scorned and slandered Epicurus. If they presented his ideas fairly, those ideas would provide an attractive alternative to the stifling dogma that theists routinely push on people.</p>
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		<title>By: Leum</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42896</link>
		<dc:creator>Leum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42896</guid>
		<description>Excellent! This post deserves a slot in the Must-Read Posts section. Epicurus gave us an excellent basis for morality (one that is echoed, amplified, and expanded by your universal utilitarianism), and does not deserve the slander that has been heaped on him and his ideas by theologians ever since. This post is an excellent answer to those who claim that morality requires a god.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent! This post deserves a slot in the Must-Read Posts section. Epicurus gave us an excellent basis for morality (one that is echoed, amplified, and expanded by your universal utilitarianism), and does not deserve the slander that has been heaped on him and his ideas by theologians ever since. This post is an excellent answer to those who claim that morality requires a god.</p>
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		<title>By: db0</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/12/all-things-in-moderation.html#comment-42895</link>
		<dc:creator>db0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=909#comment-42895</guid>
		<description>Just dropped by to say that I&#039;m glad you brought up Epicurus :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just dropped by to say that I'm glad you brought up Epicurus :)</p>
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