You are a voice of reason. I'm not knocking these programs outright, but they meed major reform. The've become a place where politicians hire people they either owe favors to or build their own base of people who then owe them favors. Anyway, this is off topic, perhaps we can discuss this in another forum!

Its a nice dream, but an atheist president seems SO far away to me. I know people thought that a black (or half black) president wouldn't be possible, but look how long it took to get there. The fight for free thinkers as equals in society has only just begun, and I think that religious intolerance will be harder to defeat than racial hatred. I HOPE I am wrong though.

Sad to say, but Politics IS all about the common denominator, and the only way to gain power as a minority is to strategically organize from the bottom up. This is what the religious right did, and look how far they got. The problem is that most free thinkers have other things to do with their lives. Since we know this is the only life we have, we don't spend it narrowly focused on making others bend to the "will of our lord and master". Believing that you are on the side of "god", and all that is right, is a powerful motivator.

As far as safeguarding our freedoms goes, most people in the US aren't even aware of what freedoms they HAVE. Every time a show does a segment where they go to people on the street and ask about the constitution, 99% of people are clueless! They cannot fight for, or value, what they are not aware of. Voting may be the cornerstone of democracy, but the meaning gets lost when the population doesn't understand the real issues. Education, and a focus on journalistic integrity (and media thus created) is the best way to combat this. There is a reason the free press was protected.
And,
I agree the fairness doctrine is ridiculous, but don't forget it was the modern right wing who destroyed our most important, basic, freedoms- more than any other group. Personally, I would love to see the hate mongers that spread misinformation and venom (Hannity! O'Reilly! Fox News!) stopped, but not this way. I still can't believe anyone listens to them, they are boastfully ignorant and blatantly hateful caricatures.

Off topic:

Vin-
Basically, FDR created safety net programs to cover people where the free market cannot/ will not. I don't see this as failure. And I don't mind paying for it. (BTW education is funded by local taxes). I don't think government has to have all of the answers, but it is the best way to provide this safety net. Could these be improved? Of course.

The FDR doctrine has been SUCH a "failure" that...
- All people have a shot at education now (not that all schools are good, but the majority ARE). And you are still free to home school your kids if you want.
- Social security creates a back-up savings plan and social net for older Americans- this is even MORE important now that most companies have lowered wages while eliminating pension plans, and many peoples 401K's and retirement savings are being wiped out by the "free market" liars.
- Medicare covers a vast number of people, even those that are rejected by private care plans. I don't see private insurers are lining up to cover the elderly (unless their primary coverage is MEDICARE).
- Medicaid- Is a plan to cover the nations most vulnerable- the poor, the very ill, and pregnant women without maternity coverage. Are we to quit covering them, and if so, who will?

Middle class people are saddled with the responsibility to pay for EVERYONE (not just the needy, but also the very wealthy) because large companies/ the super rich avoid their taxes through off shore accounts, and other tax dodges. If the wealthiest 1% don't pay more, the rest of us will.
But someone will pay.

StaceyJW

Sadly, that's probably true. Besides, don't you know, the very worst of sins is not accepting Jesus. They've got us on that one no matter what.

Yep, that's pretty much all they have to do to call you "evil." Thus one of the main reans I no longer care what they think of us on a "moral" level...

Doubtful - it's more likely they would just proceed to redefine "morality" to suit their own purposes and then accuse you of not following it.

Sadly, that's probably true. Besides, don't you know, the very worst of sins is not accepting Jesus. They've got us on that one no matter what.

If you insist on holding to the ridiculous lie that our democrats are actually particularly liberal, the least you could do is consider the results of right-wing government as well. Maybe there are reasons to be anti-Bush.
The last eight years of Bush and unfettered right-wing powermongering has hurt this country in plenty of ways. Expanding executive power beyond our nice checks and balances, waging pre-emptive war based on lies and cherry-picked intelligence, ignoring the free market and rewarding cronies with expensive, no-bid contracts to repair the damage done in an unnecessary war. Using terrorism as an excuse to violate the constitution and put us into a semi-permanent neverland of expanded government power. Using tax money to promote and reward sectarian religious groups for delivering the ignorance vote.
Eight years of Bush and worthless right-wing thieves and murderers...where's that smaller government and lower taxes? They had eight years, and yet not one good result! I guess you could argue that there is more liberty and less rules now, but not for the citizens, just for our phone tapping, torturing, war criminal government and the corporations that assist them...not the kind of liberty I need in my life, thank you! What we have are a dramatically larger, more powerful government that has violated more rights, spent more money, and created more national debt than any liberal(s) in American history! Maybe I could take conservatives more seriously if they could hold on to even one of their own self-proclaimed values. Please feel free to get some facts together, and maybe you won't sound so ignorant in the future.
For the record, I agree that social change is better from the ground up than forced from above. Some amount always has to be from the ground up, or civil unrest and even war becomes a risk. Unfortunately, if we want to have any forests left, if we want to protect any wildlife, if we want to slow climate change, if we want to promote equality for all humans, if we want to see all children have decent healthcare, if we want sexual autonomy, or if we want to accomplish any of many different worthwhile goals...you know, securing LIBERTY for ourselves...society cannot always wait for the bigoted, the greedy, and the ignorant to grow up and act like human beings.

But by being so against the Bush administration and electing a whole sea of Democrats, you bring more regulations on our country and less freedon.

The Bush admistration pushed for plenty of new regulations to serve their masters too, you know. I don't see another republican administration being any different from the incoming democratic one - both will do nothing more than make promises they don't intend to keep and kiss the asses of the special interests...

The best way to bring about real reform, real progress and justice in society, is not to create more regulation or more rules.

But by being so against the Bush administration and electing a whole sea of Democrats, you bring more regulations on our country and less freedon.

Amen to that! If we all lived up to his standards, most believers would have to hang their heads in shame by contrast. The "moral argument" would become a quaint relic.

Doubtful - it's more likely they would just proceed to redefine "morality" to suit their own purposes and then accuse you of not following it.

If any theist ever claims that God holds a monopoly on goodness or that atheists can't be moral, point them toward Ingersoll.

Amen to that! If we all lived up to his standards, most believers would have to hang their heads in shame by contrast. The "moral argument" would become a quaint relic.

I can only imagine the kind of attack ads an opposing candidate could create against me, just by lifting snippets out of context from this website.

In lots of places in this country, they wouldn't even have to take things out of context. It would be enough to say, "He's an atheist," to shoot down any chances you would have had.

The genius of democracy, and also its greatest failing, is that people get the government they deserve. As easy as it is to satirize the clumsy pandering and overheated rhetoric of politicians, the fact remains that they do it because it works.

Demagogues have existed since the idea of democracy came into being, and the only true safeguard against them is a populace motivated by reason rather than emotion. A free society begins to decline when that populace shirks its civic responsibilities - namely, the eternal state of vigilance required to be a good citizen. Living as a free individual isn't always easy because it means shouldering the burdens necessary to safeguard that freedom, both for oneself and for posterity.

Politicians are masters in the arts of sophistry and persuasion; it's hard to get elected if you're telling it straight and your opponent is promising the world to anyone who casts a ballot for him. Like Ebon mentioned, the only way to combat such techniques is with rational mores that encourage justice, liberty and fraternity.

This is something that Ingersoll understood well, and it's something we atheists should always keep in mind. Religion is plagued with spiritual shills who claim to guarantee salvation, usually in exchange for your life savings. They exploit people's deepest beliefs and insecurities in order to pad their personal expense accounts - and they get away with it because those same people have little experience with critical thinking. Ingersoll was one of the most respected, although not always liked, intellectual minds of his time, and he could have had more political influence than most people dream of had he pursued it. However, he chose to risk his reputation and poison any chance he would have in the political arena to be a standard-bearer for reason, rallying Americans together to combat such base exploitation. He knew such path was long, arduous and fraught with peril, but eventually, the rational would vanquish the irrational.

In lieu of fame and fortune, he chose virtue. This is the most important lesson that Robert Green Ingersoll taught us; atheism is a natural path to altruism because reason encourages faith in mankind.

If any theist ever claims that God holds a monopoly on goodness or that atheists can't be moral, point them toward Ingersoll.