Comments on: On Cryonics http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:55:20 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Luke http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-46897 Luke Fri, 08 May 2009 22:51:19 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-46897 If cryonics works, it is no more a luxury than any other life-saving medical treatment. It is an absolute necessity -- without it, you die. And it is by no means impossible to freeze everyone. It just requires a much bigger and more efficient industry than is currently available. This is not likely to happen until demonstrably reversible cryonics procedures are invented, so people know for sure they aren't going to die (and don't have to wait for legal death). I would expect it to happen by 2020 or so, as it only needs near-term nanotech (for better temperature control and such), as opposed to the actual nanobots that will be needed to repair the kinds of damage we see in todays procedures. If cryonics works, it is no more a luxury than any other life-saving medical treatment. It is an absolute necessity -- without it, you die. And it is by no means impossible to freeze everyone. It just requires a much bigger and more efficient industry than is currently available.

This is not likely to happen until demonstrably reversible cryonics procedures are invented, so people know for sure they aren't going to die (and don't have to wait for legal death). I would expect it to happen by 2020 or so, as it only needs near-term nanotech (for better temperature control and such), as opposed to the actual nanobots that will be needed to repair the kinds of damage we see in todays procedures.

]]> By: dubious http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43943 dubious Tue, 03 Feb 2009 05:42:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43943 One aspect of this argument that always seems to get left out, is what is actually happening on the ground in these horribly run cryonics businesses. People don't seem to realize that they are making a lot of money from people's death, and that cryonics is a financial scam. As many people have stated, cryonics is not science, its like a religious faith. It is Pascal's Wager, but worse, its being promoted by people who want to make money off it. As far as how badly these cryonics companies are run, there is a whistleblower book coming out soon from a former senior member of Alcor. Cryonics, Ted Williams and Alcor http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,64749,page=1 One aspect of this argument that always seems to get left out, is what is actually happening on the ground in these horribly run cryonics businesses. People don't seem to realize that they are making a lot of money from people's death, and that cryonics is a financial scam.
As many people have stated, cryonics is not science, its like a religious faith.
It is Pascal's Wager, but worse, its being promoted by people who want to make money off it.

As far as how badly these cryonics companies are run, there is a whistleblower book coming out soon from a former senior member of Alcor.

Cryonics, Ted Williams and Alcor
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,64749,page=1

]]> By: SuperHappyJen http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43818 SuperHappyJen Sat, 31 Jan 2009 03:00:56 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43818 But cryogenics worked in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, so it must work! I'm just too poor for immortality, unfortunately. But cryogenics worked in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, so it must work! I'm just too poor for immortality, unfortunately.

]]> By: Leum http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43336 Leum Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:35:18 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43336 Out of curiosity, who's Bernal? Out of curiosity, who's Bernal?

]]> By: Suey http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43320 Suey Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:09:05 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43320 I totally agree with; <i>why will the future want to revive us?</i> part.. we all want to be important, even when we are frozen.. Bernal said that there are two futures, the future of desire and the future of fate, and man's reason has never learned to separate them. I totally agree with; why will the future want to revive us? part.. we all want to be important, even when we are frozen.. Bernal said that there are two futures, the future of desire and the future of fate, and man's reason has never learned to separate them.

]]> By: BlackSun http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43286 BlackSun Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:06:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43286 Paul C, as in "threescore and ten," obviously. Paul C, as in "threescore and ten," obviously.

]]> By: Paul C http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43281 Paul C Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:52:43 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43281 <i>At its core, that's a fundamentalist sentiment.</i> Fundamentalist in relation to what, exactly? At its core, that's a fundamentalist sentiment.

Fundamentalist in relation to what, exactly?

]]> By: jack http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43250 jack Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:40:47 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43250 I can only chuckle when I read about the idea of people frozen in our time being resurrected in some distant magical future. People of my generation (boomers) will be such a crushing burden on society in 20 or 30 years that the legalization of euthanasia will become enormously appealing to the younger generations who change our diapers, put up with our demented rantings, and pay our Social Security and Medicare expenses (not to mention the staggering debt we are still running up on the national credit card). To think that they, or any of their descendants, would go to great expense and effort to preserve and resurrect a frozen few of us is a bit of a stretch, even if it were within the realm of the possible, which it certainly is not. I can only chuckle when I read about the idea of people frozen in our time being resurrected in some distant magical future. People of my generation (boomers) will be such a crushing burden on society in 20 or 30 years that the legalization of euthanasia will become enormously appealing to the younger generations who change our diapers, put up with our demented rantings, and pay our Social Security and Medicare expenses (not to mention the staggering debt we are still running up on the national credit card). To think that they, or any of their descendants, would go to great expense and effort to preserve and resurrect a frozen few of us is a bit of a stretch, even if it were within the realm of the possible, which it certainly is not.

]]> By: BlackSun http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43237 BlackSun Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:43:11 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43237 <blockquote>Do we really want a world where people don't die- or at least the part of the population that can afford it?</blockquote> I'm always amazed (not in a good way) when I hear such deathist attitudes from humanists. This is definitely a view that we're going to have to get beyond. The solution to stultification is not to demand people who are inconvenient follow the "natural order" into the grave. At its core, that's a fundamentalist sentiment. Everyone who's still breathing has the potential to learn, change, and grow, whether you like them or not. We've already dramatically extended life spans compared with 150 years ago. Imagine if every medical advance had been met with this kind of resistance. No vaccinations, organ transplants, or heart bypasses, to name a few. "Die already!" is not a humanist sentiment. Since this life is the only one we will ever have, we should welcome and value its extension by any means that's practical. To advocate otherwise is not humanism. Death to deathism.

Do we really want a world where people don't die- or at least the part of the population that can afford it?

I'm always amazed (not in a good way) when I hear such deathist attitudes from humanists. This is definitely a view that we're going to have to get beyond. The solution to stultification is not to demand people who are inconvenient follow the "natural order" into the grave. At its core, that's a fundamentalist sentiment.

Everyone who's still breathing has the potential to learn, change, and grow, whether you like them or not.

We've already dramatically extended life spans compared with 150 years ago. Imagine if every medical advance had been met with this kind of resistance. No vaccinations, organ transplants, or heart bypasses, to name a few. "Die already!" is not a humanist sentiment. Since this life is the only one we will ever have, we should welcome and value its extension by any means that's practical. To advocate otherwise is not humanism.

Death to deathism.

]]> By: StaceyJW http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43236 StaceyJW Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:21:49 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43236 When I think of a future with cryogenics, I can't help but picture John McCain during the end of the campaign. He looked ancient and tired, as old and outdated as the ideas he was promoting. Whenever I flip past C-Span, I am reminded that there is an entire class of very wealthy old men that refuse to pass the reins to the next generation- physically or philosophically. These men always look creepy to me; an air of privileged preservation follows them wherever they go. These guys are as close to cryogenically suspended as we've been able to get. Do we really want a world where people don't die- or at least the part of the population that can afford it? If this became possible, for the first time in human history the ruling elite could hold on to power indefinitely, personally. Only the wealthiest would have the means to do this, making themselves into the image of their immortal idols, setting themselves ever further apart for the masses. There are many possible futures, but vital to progress and social evolution is the constant annihilation and regeneration of the population, and the bad ideas that they carry with them. Do you think we would have gotten as far as we have if the secret to immortality was discovered hundreds of years ago? People are very slow to change their worldviews, beliefs and attitudes many changes require many generations When I think of a future with cryogenics, I can't help but picture John McCain during the end of the campaign. He looked ancient and tired, as old and outdated as the ideas he was promoting. Whenever I flip past C-Span, I am reminded that there is an entire class of very wealthy old men that refuse to pass the reins to the next generation- physically or philosophically. These men always look creepy to me; an air of privileged preservation follows them wherever they go. These guys are as close to cryogenically suspended as we've been able to get.

Do we really want a world where people don't die- or at least the part of the population that can afford it? If this became possible, for the first time in human history the ruling elite could hold on to power indefinitely, personally. Only the wealthiest would have the means to do this, making themselves into the image of their immortal idols, setting themselves ever further apart for the masses.

There are many possible futures, but vital to progress and social evolution is the constant annihilation and regeneration of the population, and the bad ideas that they carry with them. Do you think we would have gotten as far as we have if the secret to immortality was discovered hundreds of years ago?

People are very slow to change their worldviews, beliefs and attitudes

many changes require many generations

]]> By: Polly http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43228 Polly Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:48:52 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43228 <blockquote> but ignores the fact that the real waste is in overspending on military affairs, the war on drugs, and other government schemes. </blockquote> Fuckin' A!!! We actually spend trillions on <i>shortening</i> lifespans, maiming for life, or incarcerating for decades people by the millions, thus adding to human misery today. How's that for a return on investment?

but ignores the fact that the real waste is in overspending on military affairs, the war on drugs, and other government schemes.

Fuckin' A!!! We actually spend trillions on shortening lifespans, maiming for life, or incarcerating for decades people by the millions, thus adding to human misery today.

How's that for a return on investment?

]]> By: Leum http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/on-cryonics.html#comment-43224 Leum Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:52:04 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=921#comment-43224 I agree with you, Chet. Electronic data are some of the most easily lost around, even paper has a better chance of survival. It's actually a significant concern for a number of historians and archivists. Back to cryonics, without knowing the cost I can't comment too much on whether it's a waste of money, but the idea that the money is necessarily wasted because it could go to a worthier cause is a noble sentiment, but ignores the fact that the real waste is in overspending on military affairs, the war on drugs, and other government schemes. Also, we spend money on other luxuries that could also go towards helping others (e.g. books, beer, baseball, balliteration). (Although those do not cost as much. As I said, I don't know how much cryonics cost (costs?).) I agree with you, Chet. Electronic data are some of the most easily lost around, even paper has a better chance of survival. It's actually a significant concern for a number of historians and archivists.

Back to cryonics, without knowing the cost I can't comment too much on whether it's a waste of money, but the idea that the money is necessarily wasted because it could go to a worthier cause is a noble sentiment, but ignores the fact that the real waste is in overspending on military affairs, the war on drugs, and other government schemes. Also, we spend money on other luxuries that could also go towards helping others (e.g. books, beer, baseball, balliteration). (Although those do not cost as much. As I said, I don't know how much cryonics cost (costs?).)

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