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	<title>Comments on: The Story of Atheism</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Waialeale Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-44294</link>
		<dc:creator>Waialeale Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-44294</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m &quot;afraid&quot; you lost me at &quot;beginning&quot; and &quot;alone and afraid.&quot; I believe humanity is an emergent quality and I&#039;d hesitate to say it had a beginning, more that it emerged over time, perhaps hundreds of thousands of years.
Were we ever &quot;alone and afraid?&quot; No more lonely than a chimpanzee or gorilla. Maybe in modern society, we&#039;re even more alone. We likely evolved from a social primate and always had members of the tribe or family unit nearby. As for afraid, I&#039;d guess we&#039;re more afraid today -- since we have more time to sit around and think of things to be afraid of. And then there&#039;s the politicians, lawyers and insurance salesmen whose task is to make us afraid. Oh yeah, I forgot the preachers teaching hellfire and damnation. At least the monkeys don&#039;t worry about going to hell and being tortured for eternity.

Interesting article in NewScientist this last week. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126941.700-born-believers-how-your-brain-creat%20%20%20%20es-god.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Born Believers: How Your Brain Creates God.&quot;&lt;/a&gt; It discusses several God theories gathering traction among scientists -- personally, I don&#039;t believe they&#039;re incompatible. And certainly doesn&#039;t envoke the supernatural. And maybe they&#039;re not incompatible with your Psalm, just another way of putting it.
I won&#039;t bother summarizing the article, but it&#039;s probably good reading for most atheists. 

Waialeale Mike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm "afraid" you lost me at "beginning" and "alone and afraid." I believe humanity is an emergent quality and I'd hesitate to say it had a beginning, more that it emerged over time, perhaps hundreds of thousands of years.<br />
Were we ever "alone and afraid?" No more lonely than a chimpanzee or gorilla. Maybe in modern society, we're even more alone. We likely evolved from a social primate and always had members of the tribe or family unit nearby. As for afraid, I'd guess we're more afraid today -- since we have more time to sit around and think of things to be afraid of. And then there's the politicians, lawyers and insurance salesmen whose task is to make us afraid. Oh yeah, I forgot the preachers teaching hellfire and damnation. At least the monkeys don't worry about going to hell and being tortured for eternity.</p>
<p>Interesting article in NewScientist this last week. <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126941.700-born-believers-how-your-brain-creat%20%20%20%20es-god.html" rel="nofollow">"Born Believers: How Your Brain Creates God."</a> It discusses several God theories gathering traction among scientists -- personally, I don't believe they're incompatible. And certainly doesn't envoke the supernatural. And maybe they're not incompatible with your Psalm, just another way of putting it.<br />
I won't bother summarizing the article, but it's probably good reading for most atheists. </p>
<p>Waialeale Mike</p>
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		<title>By: Ishryal</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43388</link>
		<dc:creator>Ishryal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43388</guid>
		<description>Well, instead of machine one could use automaton. Basically the same thing, but with less &#039;insert creator here&#039; baggage. A machine also suggests a level of intelligence... something that is just automatic doesn&#039;t (IMO).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, instead of machine one could use automaton. Basically the same thing, but with less 'insert creator here' baggage. A machine also suggests a level of intelligence... something that is just automatic doesn't (IMO).</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43379</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43379</guid>
		<description>In regard to some earlier comments:

I agree that the use of the word &quot;machine&quot; has some undesirable connotations. Unfortunately, I don&#039;t think English has a word that better captures the meaning I wanted to convey. (This may go to underline my point: we invent gods because we attribute intentionality to the natural world; lacking any other frame of reference, we conceive of natural phenomena in the same way we conceive of our fellow human beings, as agents possessing desires and wants.) Terms like &quot;emergent structure&quot; or &quot;predictable system&quot; are more technically accurate, but too awkward for the kind of everyday storytelling I was aiming for.

Still, I think even conceiving of the cosmos as a machine is an improvement. The one useful thing about the allegory is that we understand machines themselves don&#039;t have desires - there&#039;s nobody &quot;in there&quot;, but just a series of unintelligent parts which work in unison. Even if it leaves a gap for unfalsifiable intelligent first causes to slip through, it&#039;s still superior to the supernatural view which conceives of every aspect of the universe as governed by inscrutable, anthropomorphic agents. The world as a machine, imperfect as it is, nevertheless is a step up over the demon-haunted world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In regard to some earlier comments:</p>
<p>I agree that the use of the word "machine" has some undesirable connotations. Unfortunately, I don't think English has a word that better captures the meaning I wanted to convey. (This may go to underline my point: we invent gods because we attribute intentionality to the natural world; lacking any other frame of reference, we conceive of natural phenomena in the same way we conceive of our fellow human beings, as agents possessing desires and wants.) Terms like "emergent structure" or "predictable system" are more technically accurate, but too awkward for the kind of everyday storytelling I was aiming for.</p>
<p>Still, I think even conceiving of the cosmos as a machine is an improvement. The one useful thing about the allegory is that we understand machines themselves don't have desires - there's nobody "in there", but just a series of unintelligent parts which work in unison. Even if it leaves a gap for unfalsifiable intelligent first causes to slip through, it's still superior to the supernatural view which conceives of every aspect of the universe as governed by inscrutable, anthropomorphic agents. The world as a machine, imperfect as it is, nevertheless is a step up over the demon-haunted world.</p>
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		<title>By: Joffan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43129</link>
		<dc:creator>Joffan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43129</guid>
		<description>&quot;Machines&quot; in this context means &quot;predictable systems&quot; - which would be a reasonable substitute. The allegory of &quot;great gears&quot; could stay even with that change.

To me, this phrase seems to spring out of nowhere: &quot;... we should turn our attention to bringing goodness into this world...&quot; and I would prefer something more on the lines of &quot;we should turn our attention to further improving our understanding of the world, including each other, ...&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Machines" in this context means "predictable systems" - which would be a reasonable substitute. The allegory of "great gears" could stay even with that change.</p>
<p>To me, this phrase seems to spring out of nowhere: "... we should turn our attention to bringing goodness into this world..." and I would prefer something more on the lines of "we should turn our attention to further improving our understanding of the world, including each other, ...".</p>
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		<title>By: cl</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43126</link>
		<dc:creator>cl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43126</guid>
		<description>Good writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43125</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43125</guid>
		<description>I honestly never took issue with the term &quot;machines.&quot; If wanted, the second instance could be replaced with &quot;machines &lt;i&gt;of the earth&lt;/i&gt;,&quot; implying a &#039;creator&#039; of sorts yet not promoting intentionality or intelligence in it. Also, &quot;clear&quot; can be replaced with &quot;clarity,&quot; and I would replace &quot;storytellers&quot; with &quot;storymakers&quot; or &quot;authors.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly never took issue with the term "machines." If wanted, the second instance could be replaced with "machines <i>of the earth</i>," implying a 'creator' of sorts yet not promoting intentionality or intelligence in it. Also, "clear" can be replaced with "clarity," and I would replace "storytellers" with "storymakers" or "authors."</p>
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		<title>By: Fargus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43122</link>
		<dc:creator>Fargus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43122</guid>
		<description>Wonderful effort, Ebonmuse.  Longtime reader, second- or third-time commenter here.

I agree with some of the comments above concerning referring to the universe and its contents as &quot;machines,&quot; but I don&#039;t see an easy way out of it, at least linguistically.  You could say that the world and everything in it are natural outgrowths of the rules that govern the universe, but this is all personifying language.  Just as a machine implies a creator in peoples&#039; minds, rules imply rulers, governance implies governors, etc.  The problem seems to be more implicit in language than I&#039;d realized before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful effort, Ebonmuse.  Longtime reader, second- or third-time commenter here.</p>
<p>I agree with some of the comments above concerning referring to the universe and its contents as "machines," but I don't see an easy way out of it, at least linguistically.  You could say that the world and everything in it are natural outgrowths of the rules that govern the universe, but this is all personifying language.  Just as a machine implies a creator in peoples' minds, rules imply rulers, governance implies governors, etc.  The problem seems to be more implicit in language than I'd realized before.</p>
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		<title>By: nfpendleton</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43121</link>
		<dc:creator>nfpendleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43121</guid>
		<description>Some parts of the story are a tough sell, as stated above.  But so is, &quot;...and they hang him on a cross so that Man may have everlasting life...&quot;  

Don&#039;t forget the talking snakes and prophets darting around on flying horses.

Keep at it.  With enough work and a little luck, the truth will out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some parts of the story are a tough sell, as stated above.  But so is, "...and they hang him on a cross so that Man may have everlasting life..."  </p>
<p>Don't forget the talking snakes and prophets darting around on flying horses.</p>
<p>Keep at it.  With enough work and a little luck, the truth will out.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43112</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43112</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;m not so sure that referring to the universe as a machine or our cells/bodies as such is a good idea. &lt;/blockquote&gt; Yes I have my doubts about this too; a watch implies a watchmaker to the literal mind. &lt;i&gt;emergent structure&lt;/i&gt; might be a possibility, if a little prosaic. This I think is at the heart of the problem for an Atheist story. The religious narrative is simple and simplistic, the scientific one can be complex and crafting &quot;Just So&quot; tales run the risk of alienating the science literate and misguiding the rest. The endeavor is definately worthwhile though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I'm not so sure that referring to the universe as a machine or our cells/bodies as such is a good idea. </p></blockquote>
<p> Yes I have my doubts about this too; a watch implies a watchmaker to the literal mind. <i>emergent structure</i> might be a possibility, if a little prosaic. This I think is at the heart of the problem for an Atheist story. The religious narrative is simple and simplistic, the scientific one can be complex and crafting "Just So" tales run the risk of alienating the science literate and misguiding the rest. The endeavor is definately worthwhile though.</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43111</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43111</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not so sure that referring to the universe as a machine or our cells/bodies as such is a good idea.  This is the thinking that ID advocates try to exploit to claim that life/the universe has been designed.  I&#039;m not sure how else to express the thought at the moment (I know, some help, right?) but it&#039;s something to look out for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm not so sure that referring to the universe as a machine or our cells/bodies as such is a good idea.  This is the thinking that ID advocates try to exploit to claim that life/the universe has been designed.  I'm not sure how else to express the thought at the moment (I know, some help, right?) but it's something to look out for.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43106</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43106</guid>
		<description>I love the story of atheism. Thanks for telling it so beautifully.

When do we get more details on your book?

BTW, I&#039;d love to review the chapter on morality if you&#039;d like some thoughtful criticism.

Keep up the good work, Ebonmuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the story of atheism. Thanks for telling it so beautifully.</p>
<p>When do we get more details on your book?</p>
<p>BTW, I'd love to review the chapter on morality if you'd like some thoughtful criticism.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work, Ebonmuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/the-story-of-atheism.html#comment-43104</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=924#comment-43104</guid>
		<description>Sigh. UL and LI tags are disallowed in actual comments, but not in the previews apparently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sigh. UL and LI tags are disallowed in actual comments, but not in the previews apparently.</p>
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