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	<title>Comments on: The Renaissance of Atheist Evangelism</title>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44763</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44763</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Or as I wrote in my blog http://www.dewsofquietness.blogspot.com&lt;/blockquote&gt;Which I just had a look at... sigh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Or as I wrote in my blog <a href="http://www.dewsofquietness.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.dewsofquietness.blogspot.com</a></p></blockquote>
<p>Which I just had a look at... sigh!</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44761</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 14:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44761</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Your assertion that atheists &quot;are a diverse and freewheeling group, united by our lack of religious belief&quot; is something of an oxymoron since by definition (here:http://originoflifefairness.org/courtdefinedreligion.html and end of second paragraph here:http://www.investigatingatheism.info/definition.html)atheism is a religion.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Let&#039;s see, the first link is a Xian group that misinterprets a court document that talks about how atheism is an idea that touches upon religious concepts, and can therefore be considered a &quot;religion&quot; for purposes of non-discrimination in the first amendment.  The second link doesn&#039;t support your statement that atheism is a religion.
&lt;blockquote&gt;They just don&#039;t believe that a god exists. This means that, by default, they DO BELIEVE that there is no God.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Incorrect.  Theists have not met their burden of proof that god exists.  Therefore, I do not share their positive belief.  Denying that your god exists does not necessitate that I have presented a positive belief of my own.  There may be mustard in my refrigerator, but I don&#039;t know.  You could present what you believe to be evidence that I do have mustard in my fridge, but I doubt that you could meet the burden of proof to convince me it is there.  Does this mean that I believe there is no mustard in my fridge?  No, of course not.  There may be mustard there, I don&#039;t know.  But, sans evidence, I&#039;m not justified in claiming that I believe there is mustard there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Your assertion that atheists "are a diverse and freewheeling group, united by our lack of religious belief" is something of an oxymoron since by definition (here:http://originoflifefairness.org/courtdefinedreligion.html and end of second paragraph here:http://www.investigatingatheism.info/definition.html)atheism is a religion.</p></blockquote>
<p>Let's see, the first link is a Xian group that misinterprets a court document that talks about how atheism is an idea that touches upon religious concepts, and can therefore be considered a "religion" for purposes of non-discrimination in the first amendment.  The second link doesn't support your statement that atheism is a religion.</p>
<blockquote><p>They just don't believe that a god exists. This means that, by default, they DO BELIEVE that there is no God.</p></blockquote>
<p>Incorrect.  Theists have not met their burden of proof that god exists.  Therefore, I do not share their positive belief.  Denying that your god exists does not necessitate that I have presented a positive belief of my own.  There may be mustard in my refrigerator, but I don't know.  You could present what you believe to be evidence that I do have mustard in my fridge, but I doubt that you could meet the burden of proof to convince me it is there.  Does this mean that I believe there is no mustard in my fridge?  No, of course not.  There may be mustard there, I don't know.  But, sans evidence, I'm not justified in claiming that I believe there is mustard there.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44758</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44758</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But this is like saying that &quot;black&quot;, which physicists define as the total absence of color, is not a color.&lt;/blockquote&gt; and as has been said hear several times &quot;If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour&quot;. Or similarly &quot;atheism is a religion in the sense that not collecting stamps is a hobby&quot;.
&lt;blockquote&gt;They claim that they simply do not believe in a god or higher being. Well, so much for Atheist logic. It is logically impossible to have no beliefs.&lt;/blockquote&gt; This is a non-sequitur, non-belief in a deity does not mean to have no beliefs. However I suspect you are conflating a faith position - &quot;I believe in a god despite or possibly even because there is no rational reason to hold such a belief&quot; - with an epistemological belief in observable falsifiable facts - &quot;I believe the chair I&#039;m sitting on is made of wood&quot; or &quot;I believe the theory of evolution is supported by the evidence&quot;.
The most you can say about atheism as a &lt;i&gt;religion&lt;/i&gt; is that it has a philosophical apposition to supernatural phenomena up to and including the existence of a deity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But this is like saying that "black", which physicists define as the total absence of color, is not a color.</p></blockquote>
<p> and as has been said hear several times "If atheism is a religion, bald is a hair colour". Or similarly "atheism is a religion in the sense that not collecting stamps is a hobby".</p>
<blockquote><p>They claim that they simply do not believe in a god or higher being. Well, so much for Atheist logic. It is logically impossible to have no beliefs.</p></blockquote>
<p> This is a non-sequitur, non-belief in a deity does not mean to have no beliefs. However I suspect you are conflating a faith position - "I believe in a god despite or possibly even because there is no rational reason to hold such a belief" - with an epistemological belief in observable falsifiable facts - "I believe the chair I'm sitting on is made of wood" or "I believe the theory of evolution is supported by the evidence".<br />
The most you can say about atheism as a <i>religion</i> is that it has a philosophical apposition to supernatural phenomena up to and including the existence of a deity.</p>
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		<title>By: David W Jackson</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44756</link>
		<dc:creator>David W Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44756</guid>
		<description>Stimulating stuff. Your assertion that atheists &quot;are a diverse and freewheeling group, united by our lack of religious belief&quot; is something of an oxymoron since by definition (here:http://originoflifefairness.org/courtdefinedreligion.html and end of second paragraph here:http://www.investigatingatheism.info/definition.html)atheism is a religion. Or as I wrote in my blog www.dewsofquietness.blogspot.com &quot;No it&#039;s not, you protest, it&#039;s the absence of religion! But this is like saying that &quot;black&quot;, which physicists define as the total absence of color, is not a color. If I had a black cat and people were to ask me what color my cat was I would answer &quot;my cat is black&quot;. In other words, the color of my cat is black. In common practice throughout the world, &quot;black&quot; is understood to be a color, despite the technical definition of the physicists. Likewise, &quot;Atheism&quot; is a religion, despite any technical definitions to the contrary. If black is a color, then Atheism is a religion. Whenever I talk with an Atheist, he/she invariably tell me that they have no beliefs. They claim that they simply do not believe in a god or higher being. Well, so much for Atheist logic. It is logically impossible to have no beliefs. If you decide to not believe in something you are in fact believing the opposite. Atheists claim emphatically to me all the time that they simply don&#039;t have any beliefs. They just don&#039;t believe that a god exists. This means that, by default, they DO BELIEVE that there is no God. One can not just not believe. You must believe in something. This is simply a fact.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stimulating stuff. Your assertion that atheists "are a diverse and freewheeling group, united by our lack of religious belief" is something of an oxymoron since by definition (here:http://originoflifefairness.org/courtdefinedreligion.html and end of second paragraph here:http://www.investigatingatheism.info/definition.html)atheism is a religion. Or as I wrote in my blog <a href="http://www.dewsofquietness.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.dewsofquietness.blogspot.com</a> "No it's not, you protest, it's the absence of religion! But this is like saying that "black", which physicists define as the total absence of color, is not a color. If I had a black cat and people were to ask me what color my cat was I would answer "my cat is black". In other words, the color of my cat is black. In common practice throughout the world, "black" is understood to be a color, despite the technical definition of the physicists. Likewise, "Atheism" is a religion, despite any technical definitions to the contrary. If black is a color, then Atheism is a religion. Whenever I talk with an Atheist, he/she invariably tell me that they have no beliefs. They claim that they simply do not believe in a god or higher being. Well, so much for Atheist logic. It is logically impossible to have no beliefs. If you decide to not believe in something you are in fact believing the opposite. Atheists claim emphatically to me all the time that they simply don't have any beliefs. They just don't believe that a god exists. This means that, by default, they DO BELIEVE that there is no God. One can not just not believe. You must believe in something. This is simply a fact."</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Miles</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44306</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Miles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44306</guid>
		<description>Here is an interesting approach from the Toronto Star:
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/583779</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is an interesting approach from the Toronto Star:<br />
<a href="http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/583779" rel="nofollow">http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/583779</a></p>
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		<title>By: Paul Fidalgo</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44300</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Fidalgo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 04:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44300</guid>
		<description>Great post. Fefer drives me nuts, and you should check his column again; his message now seems to be, &quot;I don&#039;t hate atheists, just these mean ones who commented on my column!&quot; and then calls us &quot;no-Godniks.&quot; But hey, remember, he likes atheists!

I would only add that I think that while the FFRF&#039;s Olympia sign was wisely provocative, one can be provocative without &lt;i&gt;solely&lt;/i&gt; engendering rage. The UK bus ads are a good example of a message that was controversial, but has sparked thoughtful debates and questions. The FFRF sign, I think, sparked almost entirely vitriol. Perhaps that&#039;s what they wanted, but I don&#039;t think it was the best strategy overall. I want religion criticized as much as the next guy, but this is why we have tactics of persuasion and nuances of rhetoric, and not simply megaphones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. Fefer drives me nuts, and you should check his column again; his message now seems to be, "I don't hate atheists, just these mean ones who commented on my column!" and then calls us "no-Godniks." But hey, remember, he likes atheists!</p>
<p>I would only add that I think that while the FFRF's Olympia sign was wisely provocative, one can be provocative without <i>solely</i> engendering rage. The UK bus ads are a good example of a message that was controversial, but has sparked thoughtful debates and questions. The FFRF sign, I think, sparked almost entirely vitriol. Perhaps that's what they wanted, but I don't think it was the best strategy overall. I want religion criticized as much as the next guy, but this is why we have tactics of persuasion and nuances of rhetoric, and not simply megaphones.</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44276</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44276</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify, I&#039;m just saying that I don&#039;t have faith in faith.  I don&#039;t think it&#039;s necessary, and I find that whatever supposed benefits come from it are far out-weighed by the negatives.  I don&#039;t think that people need faith, and I actually find it condescending (not that you were doing that Leum or Emrys) for people to say that some people need faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify, I'm just saying that I don't have faith in faith.  I don't think it's necessary, and I find that whatever supposed benefits come from it are far out-weighed by the negatives.  I don't think that people need faith, and I actually find it condescending (not that you were doing that Leum or Emrys) for people to say that some people need faith.</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44275</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44275</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll concede that it provides a community, although other communities can be had, but at the cost of making divisive communities.

I don&#039;t concede that it provides a source of meaning.  The source of meaning doesn&#039;t come from religion but from ourselves, whether we incorrectly ascribe it to religion or not.

I also don&#039;t concede that it helps with moral behavior, for a couple reasons.  I don&#039;t see anything moral in only doing good to satisfy some sky daddy.  The end result is good, and the alternative might be worse, but the ends don&#039;t justify the means.

I do concede that it satisfies whatever need people think they have for ritual and ceremony, although I&#039;m not so sure that it&#039;s been established that such a thing actually exists.  If it does, it may be a by-product of religion itself, meaning that religion created a need that it then fulfills, which kind of undercuts the beneficial aspect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'll concede that it provides a community, although other communities can be had, but at the cost of making divisive communities.</p>
<p>I don't concede that it provides a source of meaning.  The source of meaning doesn't come from religion but from ourselves, whether we incorrectly ascribe it to religion or not.</p>
<p>I also don't concede that it helps with moral behavior, for a couple reasons.  I don't see anything moral in only doing good to satisfy some sky daddy.  The end result is good, and the alternative might be worse, but the ends don't justify the means.</p>
<p>I do concede that it satisfies whatever need people think they have for ritual and ceremony, although I'm not so sure that it's been established that such a thing actually exists.  If it does, it may be a by-product of religion itself, meaning that religion created a need that it then fulfills, which kind of undercuts the beneficial aspect.</p>
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		<title>By: Leum</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44274</link>
		<dc:creator>Leum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44274</guid>
		<description>Religion provides a community, a source of meaning (not by any means the only possible one), assistance with behaving morally, and satisfies the need many people have for ritual and ceremony. If religion had no beneficial aspects it wouldn&#039;t be so popular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religion provides a community, a source of meaning (not by any means the only possible one), assistance with behaving morally, and satisfies the need many people have for ritual and ceremony. If religion had no beneficial aspects it wouldn't be so popular.</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44264</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44264</guid>
		<description>What are the beneficial aspects of religion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are the beneficial aspects of religion?</p>
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		<title>By: Emrys</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44260</link>
		<dc:creator>Emrys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 06:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44260</guid>
		<description>Everyone concedes there are both beneficial and harmful aspects of religion. I would like to see the harmful aspects targeted specifically, instead of religion in general. My impression is that this is more effectively accepted by believers. In the case of religion in general, all I&#039;d like to see is promotion of open minds and critical thinking, and see how the wind blows afterward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone concedes there are both beneficial and harmful aspects of religion. I would like to see the harmful aspects targeted specifically, instead of religion in general. My impression is that this is more effectively accepted by believers. In the case of religion in general, all I'd like to see is promotion of open minds and critical thinking, and see how the wind blows afterward.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/02/renaissance-of-atheist-evangelism.html#comment-44254</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=952#comment-44254</guid>
		<description>It is unscientific to say that the world will improve just because people become unbelievers.
Granted, religion has been the cause of much harm and trouble in the world, but there is no proof that if religion had never existed that the world would necessarily be any better.
Atheists, like anyone else, are human with human propensities.
After all, there are atheists that are holocaust deniers. There are also atheists who abuse their families just as some believers do.
Atheists can also can some things that others do not: for example Sam Harris thinks there may possibly be something to the paranormal, not that he thinks that much about it.
An assertion that the world will improve because certain things will take place is in the same category as &quot;Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.&quot;
If there is anything to the concept of memes that are viral, then taking evolution into account, something would occupy the niche that religion would vacate and in itself become an infectious meme. And it might be very vicious.
One other thing: Atheism is broadly defined as lack of belief. Okay, that&#039;s acceptable. so is a person who states that he/she believes that there is no God or gods still and atheist? He/she is making a statement of belief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is unscientific to say that the world will improve just because people become unbelievers.<br />
Granted, religion has been the cause of much harm and trouble in the world, but there is no proof that if religion had never existed that the world would necessarily be any better.<br />
Atheists, like anyone else, are human with human propensities.<br />
After all, there are atheists that are holocaust deniers. There are also atheists who abuse their families just as some believers do.<br />
Atheists can also can some things that others do not: for example Sam Harris thinks there may possibly be something to the paranormal, not that he thinks that much about it.<br />
An assertion that the world will improve because certain things will take place is in the same category as "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof."<br />
If there is anything to the concept of memes that are viral, then taking evolution into account, something would occupy the niche that religion would vacate and in itself become an infectious meme. And it might be very vicious.<br />
One other thing: Atheism is broadly defined as lack of belief. Okay, that's acceptable. so is a person who states that he/she believes that there is no God or gods still and atheist? He/she is making a statement of belief.</p>
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