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Atheists, Show Some Respect!

(This essay was originally published in issue #1 of the AHS newsletter, Secular Future.)

As the New Atheist movement grows in size and influence, we've been assailed by pundits and theologians who say we ought to be more respectful - that we need to choose our words carefully and afford religious believers the courtesy they are due. And I couldn't agree more. Respect is a moral imperative for all people, and I think it's especially vital that we, as the vanguard of a reform movement seeking to make our mark on society, are respectful at all times toward the powers that be.

That's why I think it's especially important for atheists to buy ads on trains and buses, to speak out on TV and the radio, to publish editorials in newspapers and journals, and especially, continue to publish blockbuster books like The God Delusion that make the case against theism with force and candor. I also encourage atheists to speak out in their personal lives wherever possible, to make their views known to family and friends and to push back against aggressive and intrusive religious proselytizing whenever and wherever we encounter it. I believe that respect for the religious demands no less.

As you might have guessed, although I agree with clergy and apologists that atheists should be respectful, I define respect somewhat differently than they do. I believe that when you disagree with someone, especially in a matter of importance, the most respectful course of action is to speak your mind clearly and firmly, making certain that the other party knows exactly where you differ with them and why.

To my mind, this seems like the only honest definition. When religious apologists call for "respect," what they generally seem to mean is that atheists should be silent and not speak our minds if doing so might offend someone. For instance, when Richard Dawkins was interviewed for the Canadian TV show The Agenda last May, the host, Steve Paikin, read him the following passage, which originally appeared on an atheist website and which Dr. Dawkins quoted in The God Delusion:

"You have included in your book the 'new ten commandments' for atheists, and I want to read out the third commandment, which is: 'Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness, and respect.' Do you think you have shown those qualities to those who oppose your side of the argument?" (see video)

Since I was the original author of that passage, I feel compelled to set the record straight. In context, my original essay most emphatically did not advocate refraining from criticism of others' beliefs, and I strongly object to that misrepresentation of my views. (In fact, my "new ten commandments" also include these: "Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you", and "Question everything"). How would that be showing respect? In what sense is it respectful to paper over your differences in the name of false amity, to stifle your opinions just because others might disagree?

That's not respect, but rather condescension. This advice treats the religious, as columnist Johann Hari says, as if they were immature and excitable children who need to be protected from anything that might upset them. Acting this way toward theists would be to treat them as less than fully mature adults - it would be a failure to respect their status as rational agents who can evaluate an argument on the merits and respond to persuasion. Personally, if someone I knew thought I was making a disastrously ill-advised choice, but held back from saying so because they thought I couldn't handle hearing it, I would find that far more offensive and disrespectful - verging on a lie by omission. No one should fear honest criticism.

Granted, there actually are some believers who can't handle criticism without becoming angry or violent. (I'm thinking of groups like the Muslims who protested cartoons of Mohammed by marching through the streets of the UK waving banners that said things such as "Massacre those who insult Islam"). But even this is no reason to refrain from criticizing them. To do otherwise would be to send them the message that they can have their way any time they want it, just by threatening the rest of us if their desires aren't met. It rewards people for being irrationally and violently protective of their own cherished ideas. The message we should be sending - the one that shows the most respect for all groups in a free society - is that the price of being able to air your views is that other people have the right to speak out as well, even if you don't like what they have to say.

There's another sense in which a strong and impassioned defense of atheism is a respectful act. Regardless of how certain specific religious groups feel about it, our society is founded, among other things, on the ideal of free speech as a human right. We are all heirs to the legacy of the Enlightenment, a grand historical tradition of rational debate and democratic inquiry. Countless brave people from history - activists, patriots, rabble-rousers, and freethinkers and believers both - waged great battles to wrest this basic human right from the grasp of tyrants. Our freedom is a precious gift which they have bequeathed to us, and we can best honor them by making full use of it. To silence ourselves, to refuse that gift out of some spurious and ill-advised notion of politeness, would be an act of extreme disrespect toward those who suffered and even died to bring it to us. The best way to honor their memories is by making full use of their gift and voicing our opinions boldly, trusting that the tumult of debate will ensure that bad ideas are defeated and good ones ultimately win out. I, for one, intend to show that respect to my forebears; and I encourage atheists everywhere in the world to do likewise.

March 2, 2009, 7:16 am • Posted in: The GardenCommentOptions Bookmark/Share This
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74 Comments

the most respectful course of action is to speak your mind clearly and firmly, making certain that the other party knows exactly where you differ with them and why

Never a truer word spoken. It infuriates me the way many religious people have redefined respect to mean unquestioning obedience. They also seem to have forgotten that respect is not something automatically granted but something which must be earned. If they wish me to show respect to their beliefs then first they must convince me that those beliefs have earned respect - no easy task.

Respect is earned. I have yet to see where religion or theists in general have earned any respect at all. Why should I respect a bunch of people who circle the wagons any time one of them is criticized, no matter how much they themselves disagree with the target of the criticism? Why should I respect a buch of people who consistently lie about science and are such hypocrites to accept any science that makes them comfortable?

This is by far one of the best pieces I've read on this subject. What "divine" timing as well, because I have been struggling with how to be respectful toward Christians when I do feel as if they are far too easily offended and hurt. It is so easy to accidentally persecute believers that there have been times when I have been tempted to just shut up and put up, but this is definitely not the best answer. Your contrast between treating them as intellectual equals and condescending is insightful. Good essay!

Respect requires two additional words to round out its full meaning. If one figuratively stomps his foot and DEMANDs respect he probably won’t get it. One the other hand one is more likely to COMMAND respect through the quality of his thinking and his actions.

I respectfully disagree with CJ and velkyn. Respect is not earned, it is the default posture. Whenever we disagree with someone, regardless of their background, we have to operate on the assumption that they know what they are talking about, and have a logical reason for their actions.

Speaking out isn't about confronting "tyrants" or changing tyrants minds, it's about convincing the onlookers (who in turn convince the tyrant). The best way to do that is to be reasonable.

I think what Erigami is calling respect, Cannonball Jones and velkyn might call courtesy. There's more than one definition of respect, and I think they get easily confused in discussions such as these (mainly because people don't define their terms).

I also don't think it's necessarily valuable to assume people are acting rationally. People aren't always rational and there're plenty of things that aren't irrational either.

I think we should give people the courtesy/respect of letting them explain themselves, rather than making assumptions about their beliefs/opinions/etc. before we know what they are.

I have to disagree. You wouldn't automatically respect someone extolling racist or misogynistic values, and using false information to support those stances. It is critical that we do not assume that people know what they are talking about, but instead approach each new piece of information with a rational and inquiring mind. I am a firm believer in respecting people, but I have no qualms about disrespecting their beliefs - whether on religion, politics, philosophy or whatever.

Ideas must earn respect, otherwise you get a society that blindly accepts the viewpoints of everyone without critical analysis of those views. I do not operate on the assumption that someone knows what they are talking about unless they can bring evidence to the table. Society moves forward by selecting those arguments and beliefs that are beneficial, or demonstrably true, and rejecting those that aren't. That process is always going to leave some people out in the cold, but as long as we maintain a basic respect for them as human beings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with robustly challenging their views or opinions. I don't think for a minute Ebonmuse is suggesting that we disrespect them as people but, as is often the case with dearly-held beliefs, religious people tend to take unfavourable analysis of their views as an attack on their person.

This is the attitude I keep wishing I'd hear from atheist activists. Less kick-the-Christian, more kick-the-Christianity. You dig? :)

This is the attitude I keep wishing I'd hear from atheist activists. Less kick- the-Christian, more kick-the-Christianity. You dig? :)

This works both ways, as I think any atheist who is "out" can testify. People constantly confront me with their assumptions of what an atheist is, and assuming it applies to me. An amusing sidelight is the woman several years ago, who, on learning that I read a lot of science fiction, immediately assumed that I believed in UFO's, and was completely baffled when I said that I didn't. The two were so identified together in her mind that she was unable to disentangle them.

This is the attitude I keep wishing I'd hear from atheist activists. Less kick-the-Christian, more kick-the-Christianity. You dig? :)

Where is all this alleged "kick-the-Christian" that I keep hearing about but that no one seems to present?

Whenever we disagree with someone, regardless of their background, we have to operate on the assumption that they know what they are talking about, and have a logical reason for their actions

That maybe true in an internet blog when information about other people is lacking, but in real life that assumption is dismissed easily in just 3 seconds, and almost always correctly. When the vast majority of people you talk with have no idea and just repeat what they hear on tv, respect is quick to disappear.

Now tolerance and courtesy, that's another question; those should be granted even when not deserved. The respect I'm refering is something more akin to admiration for other people.

P.D. Just a word of thankfulness to you, Ebonmuse, for this fantastic site and his brother's. Thank you!

I try to cut people the same ammount of respect that they are willing to cut
me. Like Jefferson, I believe that anyone may ride his hobby-horse as he wishes and
and believe in one, none, or a pantheon as long as it doesn't break my leg or
pick my pocket.

Unfortunately, there are many believers of many stripes whose credo is that their credo grants them leave to do exactly that.

One of the groups I played with had a habit of saying grace before a meal when we ate when we were on the road. I usually refrain from noise or eating most of
the time, but the meal would come. we were expected to join hands, and then everyone would beg for mercy on the trip, go over how the vittles were to be blessed,
blah, blah, blah. This could go on for a bit and I got sick and tired of
eating meals that were at less than their optimum, so I'd start eating at the
two minute mark. I was tasked with being less than respectful, and asked how respectful were they of me, requiring me to eat a less than satisfactory meal
than I'd paid for. Well, they felt a little sacrifice wouldn't hurt. I reminded
them that I had no belief and no desire to sacrifice to something that I
didn't believe existed. But, I did propose an alternative; say their grace
when we sat down and get it over with, and we could ALL eat a decent meal.

Well, I was informed that IT WASN'T DONE... it was disrespectful of the deity,
and I was being disrespectful to them. So I and another person (Chuch goer, actually, but felt like I did) either ate at the counter or sat at another
location. We were finally asked to leave because of our "lack of respect for
others". We were with them or against them, no neutrality.

exactly AC. I can be courteous/polite to someone no matter how ignorant they are. I do not however, respect e.g. have high regard for, them in the least.

In my experience, I have learned not to expect any theist to be rational or to mean well. I have also learned that there is nothing different between attacking a Christian and attacking Christianity, considering on how each of them has their very own version of their religion. They want the religion, then they can take the responsbilty for it because they have decided its morals and actions are right. To try to say that one is seperate from the other is rather like how Christians say "hate the sin, love the sinner" when you know very well they hate both.

"...as if they were immature and excitable children who need to be protected from anything that might upset them."

Then I'm very disrespectful, as in my personal experience this is exactly the kind of reaction my dissent has elicited from theists, including close family members. I've begun refering to it as, "Touching their Psycho Button."

The more fundagelical they are the more immature and excitable they are, indeed. The greatest act of disrespect that they experience is that people can do as they like without a second thought on a Sunday or a Wednesday.

I clicked on "Massacre Those Who Insult Islam," and believe it or not, CNN has blacked out the picture of a Muslim protester holding the sign. This is exactly what Adam is talking about. CNN is trying to insulate religion from reality, and BTW, doesn't the Bible say that blasphemers should be stoned to death? What's the difference between these two statements? Christianity is the mirror image of Islam.

This is the attitude I keep wishing I'd hear from atheist activists. Less kick-the-Christian, more kick-the-Christianity. You dig? :)

The recognition that these are different is something I'd like to see from Christians (and theists in general) in actual debates as well as in abstract meta-arguments.

Also, I conditionally disagree that the beliefs a person holds have no bearing on that person's character. The focus should be on the belief, but I don't think we're obligated to think that Klansmen and Neocons are "good people who happen to have bad ideas."

That's not respect, but rather condescension. This advice treats the religious, as columnist Johann Hari says, as if they were immature and excitable children who need to be protected from anything that might upset them. Acting this way toward theists would be to treat them as less than fully mature adults - it would be a failure to respect their status as rational agents who can evaluate an argument on the merits and respond to persuasion. Personally, if someone I knew thought I was making a disastrously ill-advised choice, but held back from saying so because they thought I couldn't handle hearing it, I would find that far more offensive and disrespectful - verging on a lie by omission. No one should fear honest criticism.

Sorry for reproducing this whole paragraph, but Amen Ebon. Well said, and if I have bad breath, so to speak, please keep explaining it to me until I understand.

And here's a related thought to consider: even when atheists aren't converted, or theists aren't deconverted, honest, and firm, discourse personalizes people, removing the stereotypical demonization that exists between the two groups. It's difficult to hate a group of folk different than yourself when you're familiar with some of its members. That's not a bad result, even if it's not your primary goal.

I'd also like to add one other thing. I have a sneaking suspicion that many of y'all don't fully realize that most atheists theists engage with bear a striking resemblance to the ignorant theists y'all are always describing here, and nearly everything you claim here is easily applicable in those circumstances, which is to say, I get what you mean.

Alex Weaver:

but I don't think we're obligated to think that Klansmen and Neocons are "good people who happen to have bad ideas."

Though most of them probably are.

Though most of them probably are.

I see no evidence of this. Are you contending that the decision to hold morally reprehensible and objectively false views is something for which people should not be expected to take responsibility?

but I don't think we're obligated to think that Klansmen and Neocons are "good people who happen to have bad ideas."

Though most of them probably are.

When our descendants look back at us I hope they regard us as wretches. That's how I look back at most of the people and ideas throughout history, with only tiny minorities adopting humane and sensible philosophies.

Bad beliefs spoil character. (Just like apologetics leads to brain damage)
3 examples:

My youth pastor who drops a tear at the drop of a hat, gleefully describes (with sound effects) blowing away birds on a hunt. Neither compassion nor an iota of reflection serves to hinder his thrill at the kill; Not the hunt, THE KILL.
I do get hunting. But, it's the "reasoning" that allows a seemingly sensitive family man to take JOY in killing that didn't sit well with me: "god gave us the animals."
I suppose if he'd been born into a culture that regarded female babies as a waste, his daughters would have a rough road ahead.

I wish there were a term to describe the precise and sharp-edged delineations of those who divide the world into 1)god's favorites and 2)fodder for the former.

I already told the story about my mother's view of he Palestinians. If you're not on god's side, then your basically the devil and need to be beaten back. You have no rights, human or otherwise.

This is the primary reason Xians can rationalize Hell. If you're out of god's "circle of trust" you're shit and an eternity of torture or any other horror is OK cause god said so right in his word.

This is also the main impetus behind war and warcraft. Dehumanize the enemy. See him as evil incarnate and yourself (or your government) as the epitome of civilization and morality.

My point is that I don't think you can separate the two. Deep down, I found something repugnant in my youth pastor et al (I'm so sorry to say) Whatever they may be onthe surface, I think just below the surface, they are WRETCHES.

I respect religion the way I respect an STD. Wearing a condom doesn't mean I don't respect the girl I'm with.

I see no evidence of this. Are you contending that the decision to hold morally reprehensible and objectively false views is something for which people should not be expected to take responsibility?

No, I think he probably means that those people justify their views and their actions to themselves.

We have all seen on movies and TV the quintessential bad guy, who, upon hearing the question "Why are you doing this?" answers (for some reason, usually with an English accent) "Well, I suppose I'm just not a nice person.".

This sort of thing is rare, however. People like to think of themselves as reasonably good, and reasonably upstanding, and when they act in ways that contradict that, or think thoughts that contradict that, they experience cognitive dissonance.

They can resolve that dissonance by modifying their actions and changing their long-held beleifs, or they can reduce it by inventing justifications. The latter is orders of magnitude easier to do.

Thus, white supremacists hate black people not because they are a bunch of useless rednecks with nothing better to fill their bleak lives, but because black people are "criminals" or "vicious". They explain away any evidence that contradicts this because it is easier to do this than to understand it, and they invent justifications for that ("that's liberal commie talk" or "that's what the ACLU always says, and everybody knows you can't trust them").

You may find a psychopath among those movements who admits that they do it because it's so much darn fun, but most of them are swimming in an ocean of self-justification, entirely unwilling to make the enormous effort required to swim all the way up to the surface.

white supremacists are a bunch of useless rednecks with nothing to better their bleak lives who invent lies to excuse their actions *because* of what they are. From my experience, there are some people who are nasty unpleasant people and they *choose* to remain this way.

How does adding self-delusion and intellectual dishonesty to their psychological make up make them less immoral?

You know how believers often will say that atheists don't believe just because we like our drugs and murder and big sex orgies, etc? I often feel that to be another form of their usual projection, because it often seems that they follow one belief or another due to their desire to do as they like and still be "saved".

I guess what I'm saying is, yes, everyone thinks of themselves as "good". But when they need an abortion or want to kill someone or at least ruin their lives for whatever reason, lie, cheat, steal, etc....they seem to choose beliefs that will justify them.

Of course, with Xianity (the one I'm most familiar with, as I'm sure is common in the USA), you can justify just about anything. So you get some nice Xians like Universalists who are pretty damn tolerant of just about anyone (I've heard even atheists go there for the social circle) because they believe people have a responsibility to be good, decent people and treat each other right and that's what God really wants, and so the beliefs they adhere to will tend to be the nice ones. Then there are the nasty fundegelical types like my sister's ex-boyfriend's clan, who feel they are owed something but don't want to earn it, and they want to do some ugly things to people they don't like. So they adhere to beliefs that allow them do do those things and still claim the high ground--the whole "I don't have to make any effort to be nice and I can demand my way and even enforce it by any means necessary, and I can be as monstrous as I want to be, because all I have to do is hold a specific idea about Jesus in my head to be justified". And they tend to be nastier about criticism because they enjoy that wonderful sense of entitlement without having to earn that entitlement.

I think it's pretty multi-faceted. Bad character chooses bad beliefs, bad beliefs inspire or intensify bad character, and so bad character becomes even more invested in those beliefs. For someone with hateful beliefs to let go of those beliefs would be about as easy as getting those super-executives to let go of some of their obscene wealth that they haven't earned and don't deserve.

That's not to say that a nice, sweet, liberal xian has justification in his or her beliefs. I'm just saying that if someone holds beliefs that focus on genuinely good behavior towards others and holds it above faith itself, and that focus enables them to treat even an atheist like an equal human being, then that person is genuinely a better person. Probably because their sense of validation comes from their actions towards others, which they can take real credit for and can easily continue with to continue that validation. It's not as much of a threat to deal with someone of different or no beliefs, because their validation comes from their genuine good characters and the good actions they take because of it, and the faith part is like the chocolate syrup on the ice cream. It's not as much of a shock for someone to suggest that the syrup isn't necessary to make the ice cream delicious. They are more able to give credit where credit is due when they see open atheists being as real-world nice as they are, and they find it less necessary to come up with theories of atheist duplicity to "explain" why they are still superior, and they are more able to say "I don't like what the buses say, but atheists have the same rights to free speech as I do"--and then act on that, without finding ways to disenfranchise their opponents under the table.

So yes, I agree with those who take a person's beliefs as an indication of character. It's not to say I immediately assume that a fundegelical is the epitome of evil, because labels are not always perfect (just look at Fred Clark, who is evangelical and still a great guy) or that someone from the UU church will necessarily see an atheist as an equal. It's always good to talk to the person and find out exactly how s/he defines those beliefs, because even in regards to a regimented faith party there can be very personal and individual views on any given subject. But no matter how sweetly a person smiles as they describe how people who don't buy into their particular ideology will be tormented for eternity in hell, or how all unbelievers should either be silent or be dead...well, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that her sweet motherly smile makes her just a nice person with bad ideas. She wants to believe these things, she will take any opportunity to justify them, and as such, she bears responsibility for those beliefs.

Whilst the consequences may be the same there is the difference of intent between the truly evil (who are very rare) and the merely misguided who are otherwise good (and wanting to fight evil).

It is impossible for an adult of sound mind to be that wrong and still be "honestly wrong."

I am a "redneck", and I have known white supremiscists and klansmen in my life.

Most of them (rank and file) are not intrinsicly "evil", or even stupid for the most part, but they are several other things. They are willfully ignorant,on the margins, immature, insecure, and afraid. They are not over fond of logical thought on selected subjects

So, they band together with others like them which gives them the illusion of being one of an elect, a hate object which no matter how "low" they sink they will never be that (black, Jewish ...etc). They regard stubborness, cruelty, and bloody mindedness as signs of strength. (not for nothing do the klan robes have pointy heads)

They are manipulated by people who know how to use this, and can focus a mass of unhappy people. They can be made to do cruel, stupid, and yes, evil things. I honestly think that most of them would be just as happy in a dynamic little theater group with a halfway decent director.

Most of them style themselves as christians, even "real christians", get quite gooey and teary over "th' luvva gawd". And they do a lot of these things in the name of this deity.

Good people or bad? All I know is you better watch out for them and their "Love" of their race and deity. It's just the American version of the taliban and the others.

I've had the opportunity to ponder this on a personal level, too. I've been friends with racists including guys who use the n-word. A major improvement was when he actually starting saying "n-word" instead of the actual word (Who says people can't change, eh?) While they were "good guys" meaning we had things in common and enjoyed some of the same activities, I was thoroughly disgusted by their racism. And even being a gunowner myself they were a bit TOO enthusiastic about the right to bear arms. (laws/"rights" mean little or nothing to me beyond obvious practicalities)

What to do? You can't exactly "break-up" with a guy.
The last friendship I had with a person of this persuasion has been downgraded to distant acquaintanceship and partly owing to such stark differences in worldviews I'm not inclined to reverse the trend.

Interestingly, some of the racists I knew when I was a teenager I befriended in church! But others from the same group tried to dissuade them from racism. And they weren't particularly religious.
None of these people were hard up financially or socially. Quite the opposite.

Coming from an oriental background, I have a lot of resonance with the words "To silence ourselves, to refuse that gift out of some spurious and ill-advised notion of politeness, would be an act of extreme disrespect toward those who suffered and even died to bring it to us".
A Chinese myself, I am much privileged to be raised in a society where there is free speech, free flow of information, many basic human rights are protected here at where I live. Yet tyrannical ideas is so much entrenched in human civilization -- Europe have their Dark Ages, Chinese have Feudalism and later 1600' onward the gradual slip to repression. Confucian philosophy emphasize "li" (something close to etiquette), and maintaining a harmonious relationship. So anything that upsets a relationship, hurt other people's feeling is a "disrespect" in this culture.

I very much resented this notion as it breeds hypocrisy and incongruency, and certainly stifles free and open communication.

So in this part of the world I live in, people kept a silent dissatisfaction to religion/theist, but out of ill-informed idea of "respect", open criticism of theism or Christianity is not that welcomed here. Of course with the influence of the Internet, more and more people are embracing free speech and express freely their minds.

I firmly believe that not just theists or Christians can share what they believe, we as atheist, can share what we "believe" and what we disagree with them.

I think a very important point is being missed here. As Otto Rank stated, "Human beings are religious creatures." Like it or not, historically and anthropologically there is no such thing as a human culture without paranormal beliefs. We, the Atheists, are the "freaks of nature" that reject what, even to our own culture, is the norm.
A strong case can be made that evolution saved mankind from an early prototype of intelligence by giving us the capacity to be suggestible and hypnotizable. As John Schumaker states in his "The Wings of Illusion"... "At that point, all reality-transcending belief, including religion, was born."
The unfortunate reality I think we all must face is that it just may be impossible to construct or evolve a sentient being capable of, in time, unraveling the mysteries and laws of the universe while simultaneously fully coming to grip with the reality that their "being here", there "life" as it were, is no more important than that of a potato. We certainly would not call that creature human. It would be more accurate, I think, to call it a machine.
ALL human beings construct, to one degree or another, an illusionary world to inhabit. Most choose organized religions and the rest construct individual ones to suit their own nature. We atheists are in the later group. Both culture and religion exist to provide us with an invisible means of support and a way to express our heroic longings. They both shield us from the hideous truth that we are "just meat". That our lives are meaningless.
Any even rudimentary investigation of religion (private and organized) will immediately show very clearly that there is no distance a human being will not go to insure him/her self that "they" are more than meat. What, the question must be asked, would be the point of it all if at the beginning we all realized that the end COULD hold no meaning for anyone? From this realization religion, culture, dissociative pathology and the innate ability to be hypnotized arise in man, because it was necessary if any degree of sanity were to be expected.
So, what does this have to do with "respect"? Think of it this way. We are ALL far at sea without a boat. Each of us, hopefully, has a floatation device. A few manufactured their own and are quite proud of them. Most purchased their own from a dealer or were issued one at birth. They all work to one degree or another but none of us know how we will hold up under hurricane winds and torrential rain. We are ALL perpetually very nervous about this situation and rightfully so. We use what we know. There is safety in numbers. We cling to those who share our form of flotation device. We reject and despise those who, by refusing our brand and type, increase our terror by their very existence. The simple fact that they do exist and float beside us is concrete proof that we have made a choice and that choice, like any choice, COULD be wrong. Their very existence "questions" the assumption that we must be right. It "questions" the very foundation of our world view and, as a consequence, our magnificently crafted denial of death scheme. THEY remind us that we "could" be wrong.
Only two questions remain.
1. How do you politely inform someone psychologically incapable of accepting the fact that they are "just meat" that they are, in fact, "just meat"? My answer would be.... You can't.
2. What is to be done with this fact in a world awash in nuclear weapons and occupied by billions of people who are convinced that this life is really nothing when compared to the life they will have "next" if they perform correctly in this one? Especially when "correctly" involves eliminating people who disagree.

There is no "polite" way to ask a person far at sea to remove their flotation device. In fact, to do so would surely mean they would sink. No help there I'm afraid.

The answer, in my opinion, can only come from more... (wait for it)... religion. Until and unless a culture can be fashioned that successfully denies or softens the inevitability of death while simultaneously providing a "reason" to live, mankind is destined to destroy itself. As Atheists we must construct and feed that "culture". Being "right" and "scientific" and having truckloads of "proof" on our side is not enough. In the end we will survive or perish as a species based entirely on our ability to come up with a culture that works better. Politeness or rudeness, respect or disrespect have nothing to do with it at all. They are wholly irrelevant terms when confronted with a person hypnotized into thinking they are a chicken.

They both shield us from the hideous truth that we are "just meat". That our lives are meaningless.

In the cosmic sense, perhaps, but the meaning that we impart to ourselves is real.

The answer, in my opinion, can only come from more... (wait for it)... religion.

I disagree. If someone is dying of poison, swallowing more doesn't help them. If someone is dying of a disease, getting as many other diseases as possible isn't going to help. Besides, religion doesn't really provide a "reason" for living. It provides a hope against the inevitability of death. Knowing that there is nothing after death helps one to appreciate what we do have. Thinking that some glorious afterlife comes next should lead one to actually look forward to death.

OMGH tells us... "In the cosmic sense, perhaps, but the meaning that we impart to ourselves is real."

To who? What makes it real? How real is that meaning 5 seconds after you are dead meat (as apposed to living meat)?

Religion isn't poison OMGH. Ask most of the people alive today. Certainly SOME religions are highly toxic with respect to mankind's future, but all poison...no. I too am an Atheist. But, apparently unlike you, I don't confuse myself into thinking that mankind can continue to function (without going mad) WITHOUT some means of "convincing" of him/herself that there is some kind of purpose to life. For some it is Jesus, Allah, The Book of Mormon, ... for others it's golf, sex, MONEY... but, it has to be something. We are hard wired for it. Public religion or Private religion... take your pick. NOBODY gets in or out without one. Sorry. It's part of being human.

To who? What makes it real? How real is that meaning 5 seconds after you are dead meat (as apposed to living meat)?

It's real to me. You're making an error in concluding that only some deeper, cosmic meaning is at all meaningful. There doesn't have to be a grander scheme of things in order for us individually to decide that we can make our own path, our own meaning. Atheism is not the same as nihilism, and religion isn't the antithesis to nihilism either.

Religion isn't poison OMGH. Ask most of the people alive today. Certainly SOME religions are highly toxic with respect to mankind's future, but all poison...no.

It's an analogy. Generally, the cure for some sort of ill is not to continue to partake in that illness or try to induce more of it. Once you replace one set of faith-based, irrational ideas with another, then what? You're still left with faith-based, irrational ideas.

But, apparently unlike you, I don't confuse myself into thinking that mankind can continue to function (without going mad) WITHOUT some means of "convincing" of him/herself that there is some kind of purpose to life.

I'm not a nihilist, nor does one have to be in order to be atheist. Again, you are looking at things as if there must be some cosmic order or at least that people must believe there is, or some external purpose in order to keep people happy/contented/in line/whatever.

For some it is Jesus, Allah, The Book of Mormon, ... for others it's golf, sex, MONEY... but, it has to be something.

Again, I disagree. I'm a counter-point, as are many others who post here. I don't see an external purpose for life. We are here, we make our own purpose, we live it out. Our own purpose is shaped by our evolution as social animals, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't have to believe in some sort of external purpose.

Finally, the "purpose" of life as given by the major religions is to hope for a quick death followed by some after-life if one logically examines what those religions espouse. I don't see this as a "purpose" at all.

OMGF, watch out for that poison analogy, it might bite you in the back! In lieu of easy access to an antidote, swallowing lots more of the poison can induce vomiting and save you. Or at least, so television tells me...

OMGF... Where did you get the idea that I am... "concluding that only some deeper, cosmic meaning is at all meaningful."? Nothing could be farther from the truth. I see no external purpose to life.
BUT, that is not my point.

My point is simple. There is not now, nor has there EVER been on this planet ANY culture devoid of paranormal beliefs. Why do you think that is? Do you think every human society that has ever been was made up of entirely stupid people and it took you to figure that out?
I too am a lifelong Atheist. What I'm not is foolish enough to ignore the all too human facts staring us both in the face. Again, I am forced to agree with Rank, Becker, Keirkegaard and all the rest who see humans as "religious creatures" before they are biological creatures. You don't have to agree. You have chosen a "private" religion to shelter you from the storm. In your words... "we can make our own path, our own meaning". Bingo!

You end your post with this... "Finally, the "purpose" of life as given by the major religions is to hope for a quick death followed by some after-life if one logically examines what those religions espouse. I don't see this as a "purpose" at all." With all due respect, what you don't know about religion is a lot.

Cosmo is a faitheist, apparently...

Hardly themann1086.

The concept of a God seemed absurd to me from as far back as I can remember. That is precisely why I found the human need for paranormal beliefs, Gods, magic, supernatural beliefs and the rest so curious. It's easy to just say believers are wrong, or stupid, or weak minded, or just frightened children.... But it does nothing to explain the universal nature of religion-paranormal beliefs. Nothing at all.
In case you haven't noticed calling believers stupid does nothing but "reinforce" their particular beliefs.

Do an experiment. Try telling a person hypnotized into thinking they are a chicken that they are not. Good luck with that.

/facepalm

Is does not equal ought. Just because superstition is widespread does not mean it is good. The original definition of faitheist (which was not on the UD site, weirdly) is someone who "believes in belief"; that is, they don't believe in the supernatural or paranormal, but believe that such beliefs are good. That seems to be precisely what you're arguing.

And there are plenty of reasons that people of all intellects believe weird (and wrong) things; I shouldn't have to preface every fucking critique with "I don't think people who believe X are on the whole any more stupid than the general population, I just think they're wrong and here's why".

There is not now, nor has there EVER been on this planet ANY culture devoid of paranormal beliefs. Why do you think that is? Do you think every human society that has ever been was made up of entirely stupid people and it took you to figure that out?

It is however only relatively recently that the evidence and scientific rational for the atheist position bacame available. As Richard Dawkins pointed out,

An atheist before Darwin could have said, following Hume: "I have no explanation for complex biological design. All I know is that God isn't a good explanation, so we must wait and hope that somebody comes up with a better one." I can't help feeling that such a position, though logically sound, would have left one feeling pretty unsatisfied, and that although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.

It is only recently we have been able to conclusively point to the age of the earth as billions, not thousands, of years old. Add to this that in large parts of the world this information has only been availabled for decades, it is not surprising we still inhabit a superstitious world.
I accept that we have evolutionary pre-dispositions to infer agency and anthropomorphise, but the selective value of this is diminished and we can rationalise ourselves out of the habit. Religiosity is not inevitable and it is not necessary for a valuable life. Time will tell but my money is on increasing secularisation in the long run.

Steve Bowen, I tend to agree with most of what you say with regard to "selective value", but I'm finding myself losing more confidence day by day in mankind's ability to "rationalize ourselves out of the habit". If you are right how does one explain the astounding growth of Fundamentalism? Why isn't it declining instead of growing?

I live just a few miles from the homes of Jefferson, Madison and Monroe in a state that pioneered the rights of freedom of/from religion. What do I see? The largest Christian Fundamentalist University in the world and a population that, if they could, would totally remove any mention of evolution from public schools. Of course not ALL people feel this way, but, enough do that if it were put to a vote I have no doubt as to the outcome.

You post... "Religiosity is not inevitable and it is not necessary for a valuable life." and, you may very well be right, but, I think it totally depends upon your definition of "religiosity". It may not be inevitable for the individual... but I defy you to point out a culture anywhere on earth that doesn't share paranormal beliefs.

Belief is the partner of willful ignorance. As the only animals that "know" we are here and "know" we will die and "know" we are engaged with the rest of biology in a "Mutual Eating Society" ... there appears to be MUCH mankind would prefer to deny. Our own pathetic insignificance in this universe, for one.

ALL cultural world views are "shared fictions". WE are at the center of the world and every culture proves this by being its own death denial scheme. Bullshit is the glue that holds us together and we have a psychological inability to tolerate people who do not subscribe to our death denial plan. Call it religion, call it brain washing... call it bullshit, it doesn't matter. The fact remains that human beings "evolved" to view out groups as prey animals. How do you think George Bush got elected? Why do you think it was that each and every time the American public was "reminded" of 9/11 and informed that the Homeland Alert status was changed from one color to another, more "serious" one.... Bushes popularity increased? It's called Terror Management Theory.
As Ernest Becker informed us... "your beliefs about the nature of reality serve a death denying function"... Reminders of death have been shown, in hundreds of experiments, to dramatically INCREASE intolerance toward people who are "different" and to increase aggression. So, when you post... "Time will tell but my money is on increasing secularization in the long run".... I would agree, PROVIDED things get "less" stressful on good old planet earth and human beings find themselves competing "less" for resources that get more and more scarce each and every day. Baring that, sadly, I don't think you have the proverbial "snowball's chance in Hell".

You have chosen a "private" religion to shelter you from the storm.

Rubbish. Rejection of religion does not necessarily entail accepting an alternate religion. And, what storm am I supposedly sheltering myself from (that you, I suppose, are able to face since you are so advanced?)

With all due respect, what you don't know about religion is a lot.

With all due respect right back, you don't know anything about me or what I do know, so I don't see how you can make such idiotic, snap judgements. If Xianity promises an afterlife of eternal bliss, then why would one not want a quick death so that one can get on with it? This would be the logical conclusion of one who truly believes in the Xian idea of heaven. Do you dispute that? If so, then point out why it isn't logical instead of making ad hominem statements.

If you are right how does one explain the astounding growth of Fundamentalism? Why isn't it declining instead of growing?

Because it's a natural thing sometimes for people to cling more tightly to things that aren't true when they really want them to be true. That and the loudest voices tend to be fundies.

...but I defy you to point out a culture anywhere on earth that doesn't share paranormal beliefs.

As has just been pointed out to you, "Is" doesn't imply "Ought."

Belief is the partner of willful ignorance.

And your remedy for that is more willful ignorance and more belief. Fantastic.

Bullshit is the glue that holds us together and we have a psychological inability to tolerate people who do not subscribe to our death denial plan.

No, culture and being a social animal is what holds us together. Do you think that without supernatural beliefs we would all be hermits?

I would agree, PROVIDED things get "less" stressful on good old planet earth and human beings find themselves competing "less" for resources that get more and more scarce each and every day. Baring that, sadly, I don't think you have the proverbial "snowball's chance in Hell".

With resources getting more scarce, do we need more religion or less? With religions getting in the way of actual progress and the ability to develop renewable energy sources, do we need more religion or less? With religious propensities to identify people as either in my group or out of my group, do we need to promote that sort of thinking or promote a more united thinking? I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about.

Calm down OMGF. Keep your wits about you and notice that I have no disagreement with you what so ever on what "should" be the way things run with regard to religion. It is, in fact you that think you disagree with me on the "whys" of the thing.

[you post] .."And, what storm am I supposedly sheltering myself from (that you, I suppose, are able to face since you are so advanced?) Oh, I'm not advanced. But I am dealing with existential angst of knowing that, although I have almost God-like powers I am ridiculously temporary and absurdly insignificant. I think religion was the twin of man's genetically selected for ability to dissociate ourselves from that angst. To "make" meaning out of being just another kind of meat on a planet powered by mutual eating.

[you post] .. "Because it's a natural thing sometimes for people to cling more tightly to things that aren't true when they really want them to be true." Well, I could not have put it better myself.

[you post] .. To my statement that {Belief is the partner to willful ignorance.} .."And your remedy for that is more willful ignorance and more belief. Fantastic." NO! It's not MY remedy.... it's the "human remedy" that Atheists such as ourselves struggle to put behind us.

[you post] .. "No, culture and being a social animal is what holds us together."

In closing I would say that both "culture" and that "social animal" business are synonyms for bullshit. Culture is the bullshit we agree to pretend is important and being a "social animal" is how we do it.

I'm about what "is" because it is my philosophical enemy, and one should always endeavor to understand one's enemy. You are, or seem to be, more about what should be. Why should I have a problem with that?

(One more thing) You posted at me this in a response to my "suggesting" that your religious education could possibly be, shall we say, underdeveloped.

...."With all due respect right back, you don't know anything about me or what I do know, so I don't see how you can make such idiotic, snap judgements. If Xianity promises an afterlife of eternal bliss, then why would one not want a quick death so that one can get on with it? This would be the logical conclusion of one who truly believes in the Xian idea of heaven. Do you dispute that?"...

I don't have to! Isn't it obvious to you that, in order to function as a denial of death scheme, it couldn't PROMOTE killing yourself? If YOU were putting it together what would you do? You would make "life" (like yours anyway) sacred. Offing yourself would have to be the biggest "no-no" of all. Unless, of course, there are what culture [read: bullshit] likes to call extraordinary circumstances. Then all hell breaks out.

You close your post to me with a torpedo launched directly at my midsection... "I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about."

I will maintain a noble silence.

Keep your wits about you...

Ah, because pointing out that you are using ad hominem is not doing so, but using ad hominem is?

...notice that I have no disagreement with you what so ever on what "should" be the way things run with regard to religion.

Rubbish, or did you not claim that we need more of it?

Oh, I'm not advanced. But I am dealing with existential angst of knowing that, although I have almost God-like powers I am ridiculously temporary and absurdly insignificant. I think religion was the twin of man's genetically selected for ability to dissociate ourselves from that angst. To "make" meaning out of being just another kind of meat on a planet powered by mutual eating.

Hmmm, not seeing an actual answer to my question in there, which weakens your argument.

NO! It's not MY remedy.... it's the "human remedy" that Atheists such as ourselves struggle to put behind us.

Did you or did you not claim that we need more religion?

In closing I would say that both "culture" and that "social animal" business are synonyms for bullshit. Culture is the bullshit we agree to pretend is important and being a "social animal" is how we do it.

Are you wholly unaware that there are other animals that behave in social ways and exhibit the same types of behavior as humans? It's not bullshit, it's part of our evolutionary heritage.

You are, or seem to be, more about what should be.

Again, what makes you think you are qualified to speak about me. Simply because you can't keep your story straight and make arguments that I object to doesn't mean you know me.

I don't have to! Isn't it obvious to you that, in order to function as a denial of death scheme, it couldn't PROMOTE killing yourself?

Yet, there's the rub, isn't it? If one were to be an internally consistent Xian, one would want death. Yet, they don't? Why not? They are just as afraid of death as any other human, so they make up feel-good stories about getting to live on and never think about the logical conclusion that one should come to.

Offing yourself would have to be the biggest "no-no" of all.

Where did I say anything about suicide? Stop reading what you want to read and deal with what I said.

You close your post to me with a torpedo launched directly at my midsection... "I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about."

I will maintain a noble silence.

Wow. Talk about contradicting yourself in the space of two sentences. You may want to come down off your high horse, stop making ad hominem attacks, and back up your assertions. I'll also note that you've ignored the objections that I brought up (repeatedly) that led to my conclusion that you haven't the faintest clue of what you are talking about. It's much easier to run and hide than to answer criticism isn't it?

There is another possibility you know. As the saying goes, "I can explain it to you, but, I can't understand it for you".

When you wrote... "If Xianity promises an afterlife of eternal bliss, then why would one not want a quick death so that one can get on with it?".. Did you not mean suicide? If not, what did you mean?

All the best, CW
(I confess, I find your hostility puzzling)

Did you not mean suicide? If not, what did you mean?

No, not necessarily. Quick death is not synonymous with suicide. One should want to die and go to heaven as quickly as possible in order to obtain their eternal bliss. That Xians don't desire this shows that they lack faith in their own faith.

@Cosmo Wafflefoot
I must confess I can't quite put my finger on what it is I don't like about your argument. The suggestion that more of the same religion is an answer only seems to make any sense at all if we accept your rather narrow and uber competitive view of society, and maybe thats where the problem lies.
We (you, me and OMGF) agree that religion is an artifact of evolution, but you and I at least don't agree what kind of artifact it is. I see it as a misfiring of the otherwise useful trick of assigning intentionality to natural phenomena you can't understand (Thunder make big noise/Gods are pissed off). You see it as death denial which I think is a later cultural development, software, not firmware.I think rationality, critical thinking and secular society can overcome belief in the afterlife. It may take a lot more generations but it can happen.

Steve, we are about 99% there on agreement.
If you are at all interested in how I came to have my views I would suggest the following:

"The Denial of Death" (Pulitzer prize winning book) by Ernest Becker
"The Wings of Illusion" By Dr. John Schumaker
"Art and Artist" by Otto Rank

If you have the time, or inclination, to read them I think you will easily see where I am coming from. Google them on Amazon if you like.

[you post]... "You see it as death denial which I think is a later cultural development"...

Yes, I do because it is impossible for me to conceive of our first fully sentient ancestor NOT being terrified at the thought of the world WITHOUT him/her in it. I don't think that has changed, nor do I think it will without massive educational uplift of our species. Perhaps, not even then.

Try this on. http://www.encyclopedia.com/video/xfLz3_qjhvU-ernest-becker-denial-of-death.aspx

All the Best
Cosmo

Follow it with this Steve. I think you will find it well worth your time. It does, perhaps, a better job. And, there is more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0mqxnnsSHM

All The Best

Just FYI, the issues being discussed here were also addressed in a post from 2007, "Is Atheism Unnatural?"

I have a few other thoughts:

Like it or not, historically and anthropologically there is no such thing as a human culture without paranormal beliefs.

Depending on how you define "human culture", this is probably false. I'd cite the Greek Atomists, the Indian Carvakas, certain sects of Judaism, Zen Buddhism, and Taoism. And what about the growing secular community that's up to 15% of the American population and even higher in younger generations and in European countries? Does that not count as a culture?

How do you politely inform someone psychologically incapable of accepting the fact that they are "just meat" that they are, in fact, "just meat"? My answer would be.... You can't.

I agree with that. However, I wouldn't agree that the only alternative is to be silent. Daniel Dennett has pointed out that religions are experts at setting things up so it's impossible to criticize them without being perceived as rude. That's OK by me; no social justice or reform movement ever got anywhere solely by being polite.

OMGH tells us... "In the cosmic sense, perhaps, but the meaning that we impart to ourselves is real."

To who? What makes it real?

If meaning is real to the person who believes in it, then it is real. Nothing else is needed. You seem to subscribe here to the fallacy of reification, that some magical extra ingredient is needed to turn "mere" self-chosen meaning into "real" meaning. As an atheist, you should see the flaw in this. Meaning always exists in a mind and is relative to what that mind values; how could it possibly be otherwise?

How real is that meaning 5 seconds after you are dead meat (as apposed to living meat)?

Obviously, dead people no longer find anything meaningful. That, again, doesn't mean that that meaning isn't real to us while we exist.

Mornin Ebonmuse,

Thanks for your well thought out post. I must disagree, but, that is what discussion is about. You mention... "the Greek Atomists, the Indian Carvakas, certain sects of Judaism, Zen Buddhism, and Taoism"... and that was a good shot, but, I think you are confusing "paranormal beliefs" with a belief in "a God" or a belief in a life after death. They are NOT the same. Besides, who could say that Greek culture was not overflowing with Gods, Goddesses and spirits? Zen Buddhism? Please! Certainly nothing "paranormal" about accepting as fact that arrows can shoot themselves or that Zen Masters can hit the same target, in the dark, through walls and without ever seeing the target.

I would NEVER suggest that the answer is to be silent.

.You state... "If meaning is real to the person who believes in it, then it is real. Nothing else is needed"..

So much for schizophrenia. In two short sentences you have cured more people than you can even imagine. Not to mention all those folks out there who believe in magic, 4 leaf clovers, horse shoes, not walking under ladders, never putting shoes on a table, throwing salt over your left shoulder and wishing on a shooting star.

If, as you say... "Meaning always exists in a mind and is relative to what that mind values"... there doesn't appear to be any choice but to hang up the sign that says [Anything Goes].

You post... "that some magical extra ingredient is needed to turn "mere" self-chosen meaning into "real" meaning"... Isn't it? Will there be no reference, no connection to some kind of objective, measurable reality? What then is the difference between "self-chosen meaning... and belief?

Of course all meaning is real to us while we are alive. That's the point. To create our own "safe" world and THEN inhabit it claiming it to be real. That is a personal religion.

You will have to excuse me now. I need to find my lucky socks. Today is the 10th and [10] is my lucky number, so I buy a lottery ticket, but, it never pays off unless I am wearing my lucky socks. I'm sure you can understand that. My good friend (what an idiot) stops at his church and lights a candle for Jesus on the way to meet me at the 7-Eleven where we buy our tickets. You have to be a moron to believe that ridiculous crap he believes. That's what bothers me about religion. How about you Ebonmuse?

So much for schizophrenia. In two short sentences you have cured more people than you can even imagine. Not to mention all those folks out there who believe in magic, 4 leaf clovers, horse shoes, not walking under ladders, never putting shoes on a table, throwing salt over your left shoulder and wishing on a shooting star.

And said with such astoundingly smug condescension - usually a trait of those who are full of it. Deciding on our own meaning to life (personal meaning or purpose) is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and the unreal, or having superstitions. What in the world makes you equate the two? How in the world did you go from purpose to lucky charms? That you make such illogical leaps is not helping your argument.

If, as you say... "Meaning always exists in a mind and is relative to what that mind values"... there doesn't appear to be any choice but to hang up the sign that says [Anything Goes].

Wrong again. Meaning or purpose is not the same as moral relativity or making up one's own reality.

You post... "that some magical extra ingredient is needed to turn "mere" self-chosen meaning into "real" meaning"... Isn't it?

Three for three. No, it isn't. We do not need some cosmic approval for our meaning. Should our meaning be in accord with reality? Sure. But, what reference or connection to some kind of objective, measurable reality would you claim must exist for a self-chosen purpose of making oneself and others happier in life to be real?

That's the point. To create our own "safe" world and THEN inhabit it claiming it to be real. That is a personal religion.

No, wrong again - you're batting 1000. What I choose to see as meaningful has no bearing on changing the world around me. It is simply not a religion, unless you define religion so loosely as to incorporate any belief in anything, in which case the word no longer has any meaning.

OMGF... I wish I could say that communicating with you was fun. But, I'm going to do you a favor and let you slide. You appear to be the kind of poster whose entire program consists of cutting apart what other people think. NEVER a new or insightful thought of your own. NEVER even the slightest hint of polite discourse.
You are like the guy who ALWAYS likes to go fishing with the boys, but NEVER puts his own line in the water... just criticizes the other fishermen.

In parting: .... "What I choose to see as meaningful has no bearing on changing the world around me."...

Perhaps that is because your life is inconsequential. Would it still apply to Hitler, Jerry Falwell, Jeffrey Dahmers, George Washington or General Patten?

Do us both a favor and don't respond to any of my posts. I promise to return the favor.

Good Luck
GParker

OMGF... I wish I could say that communicating with you was fun.

Your smug condescension is a barrel of monkeys...

Perhaps that is because your life is inconsequential. Would it still apply to Hitler, Jerry Falwell, Jeffrey Dahmers, George Washington or General Patten?

No, perhaps it is because actions can have affects, but our beliefs do not shape reality. This is something I assumed you would agree with, since you seem to be a nihilistic fatalist.

Do us both a favor and don't respond to any of my posts. I promise to return the favor.

The favor is solely yours since you can't actually answer the objections raised and have yet to do so. Your entire line of defense from my arguments has been to use ad hominem and ignore the substantial points. For instance, let's look at your inappropriate use of the word "religion" or your attempt to categorize meanind and purpose as somehow connected to schizophrenia. Face it, you can't handle the criticism of your ideas and you can't defend your ideas, so instead of resort to childish insults and evasion. Typical.

MS Quixote "I have a sneaking suspicion that many of y'all don't fully realize that most atheists theists engage with bear a striking resemblance to the ignorant theists y'all are always describing here, and nearly everything you claim here is easily applicable in those circumstances, which is to say, I get what you mean."
Atheists don't have a lock on courtesy or intelligence and, just as it rains on the just and unjust alike, they aren't immune from Dunning-Kruger.
Also, hey! *Pout!*

DemonHype "So you get some nice Xians like Universalists who are pretty damn tolerant of just about anyone…"
I see that you haven't run across the militant Universalists. They take their belief in a vague, ill-defined something-or-other really really seriously. Worse, when they hear that I've spoken poorly of them, they'll come out and protest quietly nowhere near where ever it is I am, with hateful signs saying things like "I love you, man" and "Have a nice day, brother", tasty casseroles and comfortable chairs. Then, when I try to walk past them, I'll have to run a gauntlet of hugs and good tidings. They're monsters.

Cosmo Wafflefoot "How do you think George Bush got elected?"
The first time, he presented himself as more moderate than he was, while his speech writers put enough evangelical "codewords" in his speeches that "the base" got excited enough to vote for the Party that they'd vote for anyway and his links to the heads of "the base" (or "baseheads") made damn sure that they got out and voted.
The second time, most people (including the Dems) were so cowed by "the war" (and the conflation of "dissent" and "unpatriotic"), while "the base" still believed (and most still do) the "big lie".

"…I would agree, PROVIDED things get "less" stressful on good old planet earth and human beings find themselves competing 'less' for resources that get more and more scarce each and every day."
There I'd agree. "Worse" is a breeding ground for radicalism.

Oh, and don't capitalize "atheist".

Modusoperandi.... You may find this interesting.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fear-death-and-politics

And, if it's all right with you, I will capitalize whatever I like. Even Atheist.

All the best
Cosmo

NEVER a new or insightful thought of your own. NEVER even the slightest hint of polite discourse.
You are like the guy who ALWAYS likes to go fishing with the boys, but NEVER puts his own line in the water... just criticizes the other fishermen.

I can unequivocally call bullshit on this.

I've been a correspondent here for three years, and OMGF has consistently put up thoughtful, tightly reasoned, and (yes, on occasion) tartly worded replies. He has helped me clarify my understanding of many of the internal contradictions of religions.

Your posting is not only smug and self-satisfied, it possesses the cardinal flaw of typing first and thinking later. I'd humbly suggest you alter your order of operations, particularly when it comes to pronouncing upon contributors with a track-record.

In short -- he's proven himself to me. You should answer his objections if you hope to do so, without whining about how not-fun the whole thing is. Life's tough. Get a goddamned helmet.

Plus, OMGF helped me move. I didn't want to move and he kept all my stuff and the place where I was forcibly and in the middle of the night moved to had a family who were clearly not expecting me, but the thought was there.

'Atheists don't have a lock on courtesy or intelligence and, just as it rains on the just and unjust alike, they aren't immune from Dunning-Kruger'.

Modus

So true. That's why we need to always question our own beliefs and welcome criticism of ourselves from others. Our reasoning could be all f***ed up and we don't even realise.

I'm sure you didn't mean it but I would expect this type of argument from a well prepared and intelligent theist, not a well prepared and intelligent atheist. It's good that you tell it as it is though.

I'm just smart enough to realize that I'm an idiot.

What is this, a "Tag-Team" .."Plus, OMGF helped me move. I didn't want to move and he kept all my stuff..."

I am beginning to get the impression that you guys (or girls) are probably not quite half my age. I have no problem at all with that, or with the fact that I seem to be able to find little that I can agree with in your thinking. That's OK too and "should", by rights, make for even better conversation. But it doesn't and it won't as long as people have the idea that this is some kind of contest.
Speaking for myself, I am a VERY "satisfied" person, so the "self-satisfied" part is correct. "Smug" is probably the result of having traveled over this ground so many times before. I assure you it is not intentional and perhaps in the eyes of the beholder at least to some degree. At any rate, is it that much worse than calling people's thoughts and opinions "Rubbish" and "Bullshit"? I really don't think so. How productive of intelligent discourse is that? In short, perhaps, there is some blame here that should be spread around.
We have differing opinions. Does that have to be or make a contest?

[Case in point:] OMGF posts... "No, perhaps it is because actions can have affects, but our beliefs do not shape reality."...

Now, I don't have a helmet, nor should I need one Thumpalumpacus, but, from my way of thinking and my experience that HAS to be one of the most naive things I have seen written in a long time. "Our beliefs do not shape reality"?

Then what does?

They certainly shape our internal reality, if they didn't there would be no such thing as the placebo effect. There COULD be no such thing as hypnotism. The "fight or flight" hormonal cascade that biologically prepares us to protect our lives and transforms our internal biochemistry is ENTIRELY dependent upon our "belief" that we are in danger. How about the hundreds of experiments in TMT that clearly show that our "beliefs" even unconsciously effect our decision making and our propensity to violence with regard to people we see as "different" from ourselves? How much deeper do we have to go? For Pete's sake, if I pull a lemon out of my pocket and show it to you... within seconds specific enzymes designed to deal with the breaking down of the acidity of lemon juice specifically will be secreted under your tongue. EVEN if it's a plastic lemon!

Are none of the above reality? Were and are they not ENTIRELY the physical result of beliefs?

Of course they are. Besides that they can be both measured and predicted. Have Jewish, Christian and Muslim "beliefs" not "shaped the reality" of both the Mid-East and our foreign policy?

OK, so if you find that too smug for your liking I offer my apology... but get real and read this again. ..." 'No, perhaps it is because actions can have affects, but our beliefs do not shape reality."...

What do we base our actions on?

Have a nice morning all
Cosmo

Thanks Thump and Modus. I know I can be terse at times, but I hope that some nuggets of wisdom come out too.

Cosmo,

I am beginning to get the impression that you guys (or girls) are probably not quite half my age.

Age has nothing to do with your arguments being less than good.

But it doesn't and it won't as long as people have the idea that this is some kind of contest.

No one's treating it as a contest. What you don't seem to get is that you've shown up, paraded some ideas that some of us disagree with, and now you seem to be pouting because we don't simply sit there and play the part of the "yes" men.

At any rate, is it that much worse than calling people's thoughts and opinions "Rubbish" and "Bullshit"?

I do not retract using "Rubbish" since you directly contradicted yourself and claimed something that was completely false. I even pointed out how you did this and why it was false. As for "Bullshit," I never said that to you, except to point out that your use of it was not correct.

They [beliefs] certainly shape our internal reality, if they didn't there would be no such thing as the placebo effect.

First of all, we've been talking about religious beliefs and now you want to talk about any belief, which is a bait and switch. Second of all, I've been speaking about external reality, as have you, so it's another bait and switch to focus entirely on internal reality. In the context of what we were talking about, our beliefs do not shape our external reality. Your whole paragraph is a red herring.

Then, when you try to relate it back to external realities, it falls apart again. Beliefs themselves do not "shape the reality" of both the Mid-East and our foreign policy. The reality of those things is what it is regardless of what we believe about it. It's the action of acting on those beliefs that shapes reality. I can believe all I want that going into Iraq was a bad idea, but that doesn't make it reality. What makes it reality is all the external conditions and the empirical realities, independent of my thoughts on the matter.

'I am beginning to get the impression that you guys (or girls) are probably not quite half my age'.

Cosmo

If that were true about me, you'd be one hellova old fella.

..."First of all, we've been talking about religious beliefs and now you want to talk about any belief, which is a bait and switch."...

Please excuse me, I had no idea our discussion was to be limited to only one "kind" of belief. I confess to being shocked to learn that the mechanism by which belief works differs from belief to belief. I stand corrected. I honestly had no idea that the only belief permitted to be discussed was religious belief.

..."I've been speaking about external reality, as have you, so it's another bait and switch to focus entirely on internal reality."...

Excuse me again. What I "attempted" to do was demonstrate to you that "belief" in and of itself, can profoundly effect our biochemistry. Our biochemistry effects our actions AND our thinking. You want external, I'll give you external.

If I hypnotize a person, susceptible to poison ivy, and tell them that a maple leaf is a poison ivy leaf and rub it on their skin... guess what happens. They break out. Is the skin external enough for you?

[no doubt, now is the time for you to pull yet another "rule" out of your ass that I have broken]

It's OK. (your statement)... "Beliefs themselves do not "shape the reality" of both the Mid-East and our foreign policy" is so far beyond ridiculous that I dismiss it out of hand. I suppose the religious (it HAS to be religious, right?) Beliefs of the Muslim terrorists on 9/11 did nothing to shape US foreign policy... and all that GOD is on America's side had nothing to do with it either.

You really have to cut this out OMGF. You have given me a gut ache from laughing...

... I can believe all I want that going into Iraq was a bad idea, but that doesn't make it reality. What makes it reality is all the external conditions and the empirical realities, independent of my thoughts on the matter."...

I see. That, of course, would explain the universal agreement on this question.

I'm guessing you are about 19...20. That magnificent age when we are SURE we know it all.

Please excuse me, I had no idea our discussion was to be limited to only one "kind" of belief.

Well, when we are having a discussion on idea X, it is rather schiesty to claim that I'm wrong due to idea Y, which is simply not part of the context of the discussion. It's a bait and switch, just like I said. If you think this is some "rule" that I pulled "out of [my] ass" then I suggest you actually do some searching for logical fallacies and learn something about them.

Excuse me again. What I "attempted" to do was demonstrate to you that "belief" in and of itself, can profoundly effect our biochemistry.

And that matters how in the context of the actual discussion topic?

I suppose the religious (it HAS to be religious, right?) Beliefs of the Muslim terrorists on 9/11 did nothing to shape US foreign policy...

It is not their beliefs that flew planes into the buildings. They could believe that America is the devil all they want without it changing a single thing. Their actions of flying planes into buildings changed our policy. Do beliefs lead to actions? Yes. And I'll be the first to argue that, since I routinely argue that having bad beliefs leads to committing bad actions. But, the beliefs themselves do not alter reality.

You really have to cut this out OMGF. You have given me a gut ache from laughing...

What we should really do is get back to the original topic. I've made many, many objections and counter-points to your statements which you have continually avoided, instead trying to focus on one specific point out of context - thus making it mostly irrelevant - and trying to drag the conversation away from the shortcomings of your argument. It's a common tactic of those who can not defend their arguments. Once the discussion meanders away from your assertions, people forget about them, they go unanswered, and then you claim that you won by default (or hope the appearance is there). Another tactic you seem to be using is ad hominem, which I've pointed out multiple times. That you seem to want to focus on my "tone" or your estimations of my age show that you are trying to discredit me instead of my arguments.

I see. That, of course, would explain the universal agreement on this question.

Universal agreement on what question? Whether we should have invaded Iraq? How incredibly wrong you are, considering there are many rethuglicans who still support Bush's actions.

I'm guessing you are about 19...20. That magnificent age when we are SURE we know it all.

You can believe whatever you want, but it doesn't make me that age...which is the whole point.

Now, perhaps you can defend your assertions that we all practice a religion, or that there must be some externally given meaning for any meaning to exist? Or maybe you can defend your assertions that the cure for religion is to have more of it? Perhaps you can defend your assertions that internally decided meaning/purpose somehow doesn't exist and if it did it would cure schizophrenia or somehow validate the idea of having a lucky rabbit's foot? These are all things that you've asserted and have not supported, instead opting for ad hominem and personal attack against me. So, let's see some support for your assertions, since you are so old and wise.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't understand a thing you read. Probably because you are so hell bent on disagreeing. 18?

..."your assertions that internally decided meaning/purpose somehow doesn't exist and if it did it would cure schizophrenia"...

Where the hell did I EVER say that?

Ebonmuse posted: ..."If meaning is real to the person who believes in it, then it is real.".

I posted back: .."So much for schizophrenia".. I mentioned NOTHING about "curing schizophrenia". That was your overactive imagination at work again. OF COURSE it wouldn't cure schizophrenia. It would make it disappear from the world as a recognizable disease. After all...

...."If meaning is real to the person who believes in it, then it is real."..

So, if you really believe that chipmunks use Lima beans, with the help of Space Aliens, implanted within your brain as a device that enables them to control your movements and thoughts.... Those beliefs would have meaning to you and be real. You wouldn't be schizophrenic after all! Lima Beans would BE what you "believe" they are... for real.

..."Now, perhaps you can defend your assertions that we all practice a religion"... Of course I could, but not as well as Rank, Becker, Kierkegaard, Jung, Reich, Adler...must I go on? Haven't you read anything on this subject? I forgot. You already know all you need to know. 17?

Oh... When I posted... "I see. That, of course, would explain the universal agreement on this question." I was of course being sarcastic (and you didn't even get THAT.)

Jeepers!

I think I see some of the disconnect here.

...."If meaning is real to the person who believes in it, then it is real."..

The meaning is real. If, to me, those fantastic lima beans mean that the holy chipmonk trinity (Alvin, Simon, Theodore) is in charge and I should submit my life to living under their guidance, then that meaning is real. Doesn't prove the existence of the beans, alien benefactors, or IC (intelligent chipmonk). But what it means to me is true enough.

OF COURSE it wouldn't cure schizophrenia. It would make it disappear from the world as a recognizable disease. After all...

Sorry that my shorthand use of "cure" was inaccurate. The fact remains, however, that this is under dispute and you simply re-iterating yourself doesn't make it any more true. That you have completely misunderstood what Ebon and I have both said on this matter is what is at issue. That, and the fact that your response is neither here nor there and not at all accurate to what we are talking about.

Those beliefs would have meaning to you and be real.

Again you try the bait and switch. Meaning, as we were all discussing it, is purpose, as in the meaning or purpose of our lives. What you are trying to equate it to now is interpretation of reality.

So, let's look at your example. If one believes that lima beans are devices used by space aliens to enable thought control, does that make it real? If we look at my argument that our beliefs do not shape reality, then the answer would be no. Simply because you believe that something is real doesn't make it so. IOW, the belief about lima beans doesn't affect reality. Hmmm, sounds like what I've been saying. Good try though.

Of course I could, but not as well as Rank, Becker, Kierkegaard, Jung, Reich, Adler...must I go on?

Yes, you must defend your assertions, and claiming that some group of philosophers agrees with you, especially without giving cites/quotes/etc. to show as much makes you sound like a crank. I can tell you right now that as an atheist I hold to no religion.

I was of course being sarcastic (and you didn't even get THAT.)

Well, maybe because it doesn't make any sense. Whether my opinion is true or not, it is not determined by my having the opinion. Your off-hand remark does nothing to counter the example, and only strengthens my contentions (as do your continuing attempted jibes at my age) that you don't have the ability to back up your baseless assertions. Condescension, sarcasm, ad hominem, evasion, personal attacks, vitriol, etc are not a substitute for cogent argumentation. If we really were to equate age to wisdom and take you at your word that you are both old and wise, I would have to question both your attacks at my age and your claim to either age and/or wisdom. One would think that you would know by now that your attacks on me do not make your arguments any more correct.

Sure did change your writing style though. As far as making my arguments more correct to you... What does it matter? In your own words, "my argument that our beliefs do not shape reality" I assume still applies.

Tell Maynard that, if he believes what he wrote to us he should probably keep it to himself. There is a name for that.

Have a good time

This guy's an egotistical prick. I'd like to cover him in spaghetti right now.

Sure did change your writing style though.

Or not...or is that another failed attempt at sarcasm?

As far as making my arguments more correct to you... What does it matter?

What does it matter? Seriously? Are you that unable to see beyond your own bloated ego? I've been asking you to back up your assertions from the beginning and to support your arguments. If you are right, I'd like to know, but I'm not going to simply accept your words without support, nor will I be cowed by your insult, vitriol, and condescension.

Tell Maynard that, if he believes what he wrote to us he should probably keep it to himself. There is a name for that.

A) You can tell him yourself.
B) Your response is either more of that failed sarcasm or it completely misconstrues what he said (perhaps intentionally?) What Maynard said is accurate, and it shows that he understood what Ebon and I have said a whole lot better than you have.

You mention... "the Greek Atomists, the Indian Carvakas, certain sects of Judaism, Zen Buddhism, and Taoism"... and that was a good shot, but, I think you are confusing "paranormal beliefs" with a belief in "a God" or a belief in a life after death.

No, I'm not. None of the cultures I just listed were adherents of anything that we would understand as a supernatural belief. Rather, they all believed that the world was governed by an unbroken mesh of laws which we could come to discover.

Besides, who could say that Greek culture was not overflowing with Gods, Goddesses and spirits?

I cited the Atomists specifically, not Greek culture in general. Philosophers like Democritus and his followers believed that the gods were real, but that they were material beings made of atoms, just like humans (and everything else).

Certainly nothing "paranormal" about accepting as fact that arrows can shoot themselves or that Zen Masters can hit the same target, in the dark, through walls and without ever seeing the target.

Your sarcasm just goes to show that you don't know very much about Zen Buddhism. Some devotees can perform quite surprising feats of concentration, but none of them would describe that ability as in violation of the laws of nature.

.You state... "If meaning is real to the person who believes in it, then it is real. Nothing else is needed"..

So much for schizophrenia. In two short sentences you have cured more people than you can even imagine. Not to mention all those folks out there who believe in magic, 4 leaf clovers, horse shoes, not walking under ladders, never putting shoes on a table, throwing salt over your left shoulder and wishing on a shooting star.

As Maynard and OMGF pointed out, you've failed to grasp my point. If you find meaning in some activity, then that meaning is real to you, by definition. Meaning is simply that which is meaningful to the individual, and if you find meaning in holding some bizarre supernatural belief, fine. This emphatically does not mean that the beliefs which underlie that meaning are necessarily true or valuable. If I make it my purpose to search for the Holy Grail, then my life has a purpose, by definition. That doesn't mean that the Holy Grail actually exists.

I'm guessing you are about 19...20. That magnificent age when we are SURE we know it all.

Please do everyone a favor and stop this rude and condescending speculation on people's ages. It's insulting, it's irrelevant, and it adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. A good argument is a good argument and a bad argument is a bad argument, regardless of the age of the person making it. If you have something to say, then address other people's ideas on their merits.

Cosmo Wafflefoot
Thank you for the references here and in the previous posts.
Yep! I think I see where you are coming from, and the arguments are pursuasive as far as they go. But I think there is a danger in assuming that the drama of history is really indicative of human values at the time. For example, if the Iraq invasion had happened at a time pre -internet, would the disquiet of the opponents have been recorded? I doubt it.
More importantly (for the puposes of this discussion) I think you are overlaying a contemporary dialogue between secular and theistic society with a historical baggage it doesn't need. Fo' shiz!(and I find, since passing fifty, I can use these idioms not only ironically but with some genuine literary effect) all the 99% you say you and I agree on is there. But beyond that there is the two hundred or so years since the industrial revolution, that has provided enough empirical proof of the effectiveness of science and reason to expect that the rational critism of supernatural forces should not be considered unreasonable.
To suggest, as you appear to do, that pandering to religious superstition is a solution to the problem of religion in the face of evidence against it, is ludicrous. It may be a short term panecea, alleviating political strife in our lifetimes, but it is not a solution. You are an atheist, you understand the flaws in theistic thinking. What, apart from short term appeasment is achieved by your prescription?

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