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	<title>Comments on: The Case for a Creator: Paging Dr. Provine</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-69702</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-69702</guid>
		<description>I have enjoyed reading this debate after having read this book.  
However, I think the main point of the book was missed throughout this strand.

I see Provine&#039;s statements as ideas the author was examining while searching for a personal answer:

ARE WE ON THE PLANET EARTH BY ACCIDENT?
or
ARE WE HERE BECAUSE SOMEONE/SOMETHING PUT US HERE, EVEN IF THROUGH AN EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS?
and most importantly,
WAS THERE A BEGINNING?
and if so,
HOW DID THIS BEGINNING COME ABOUT?

I am not a scientist.  I am just a normal guy that lives in the suburbs that has a family and a cool neighbor who has challenged my thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have enjoyed reading this debate after having read this book.<br />
However, I think the main point of the book was missed throughout this strand.</p>
<p>I see Provine's statements as ideas the author was examining while searching for a personal answer:</p>
<p>ARE WE ON THE PLANET EARTH BY ACCIDENT?<br />
or<br />
ARE WE HERE BECAUSE SOMEONE/SOMETHING PUT US HERE, EVEN IF THROUGH AN EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS?<br />
and most importantly,<br />
WAS THERE A BEGINNING?<br />
and if so,<br />
HOW DID THIS BEGINNING COME ABOUT?</p>
<p>I am not a scientist.  I am just a normal guy that lives in the suburbs that has a family and a cool neighbor who has challenged my thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-61429</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-61429</guid>
		<description>It took nearly 1500 years before anyone concluded that God wants people to do scientific research. Why did it take so long to figure that out?

In any case, most present-day scientists are either (1) nonreligious or else (2) regard their religion has having little or no relevance to their scientific endeavors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It took nearly 1500 years before anyone concluded that God wants people to do scientific research. Why did it take so long to figure that out?</p>
<p>In any case, most present-day scientists are either (1) nonreligious or else (2) regard their religion has having little or no relevance to their scientific endeavors.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter N</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-61393</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 18:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-61393</guid>
		<description>5htcommjarhead,

I was with you right up until the end:

&lt;blockquote&gt;However, the major contribution to science that Biblical, especially Christianity has provided is the belief that God has created an orderly world that can be observed and understood by man&#039;s endeavors as opposed to a material/chance world governed by a capricious nature. That belief has convinced many that scientific observation and discovery is a worthwhile effort as it is a way to better understand God.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, an &quot;orderly world&quot;, like ours, implies naturalism.  As far as we can tell, the same physical laws apply everywhere, and have done for all time.  A &quot;capricious&quot; world would imply some kind of intelligence pulling the strings -- some kind of being with a &quot;will&quot; and a &quot;mind&quot;, that could change its mind, and had the power to intervene to overrule the natural order.  And this we do not see, except in myth, legend, and fiction.

The observation that the world is governed by natural laws is certainly &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; a contribution by religion, but by science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5htcommjarhead,</p>
<p>I was with you right up until the end:</p>
<blockquote><p>However, the major contribution to science that Biblical, especially Christianity has provided is the belief that God has created an orderly world that can be observed and understood by man's endeavors as opposed to a material/chance world governed by a capricious nature. That belief has convinced many that scientific observation and discovery is a worthwhile effort as it is a way to better understand God.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, an "orderly world", like ours, implies naturalism.  As far as we can tell, the same physical laws apply everywhere, and have done for all time.  A "capricious" world would imply some kind of intelligence pulling the strings -- some kind of being with a "will" and a "mind", that could change its mind, and had the power to intervene to overrule the natural order.  And this we do not see, except in myth, legend, and fiction.</p>
<p>The observation that the world is governed by natural laws is certainly <i>not</i> a contribution by religion, but by science.</p>
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		<title>By: 5htcommjarhead</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-61373</link>
		<dc:creator>5htcommjarhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Nov 2010 04:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-61373</guid>
		<description>Christian theology is basically composed of two camps.  Natural theology, Thomas Aquinas, believes that one can only come to faith by thinking.  Revelatory theology, Augustine, believes one comes to faith by revelation.  Most fundamentalist Christians are of the second camp.  A natural theologist might believe that one could and should present rational arguments for the existance of God and related beliefs thereto and might be inclined to argue with an atheist.  A revelatory theologist understands faith as the acceptance and knowledge of a supernatural revelation and that argumentation cannot create faith.  A revelatory theologist understands that there is no amount of scientific data or argument that can convince another of the reality of God, because God, by definition, stands outside nature.  The only thing a revelatory believer can offer is hope that the other will at some point receive or accept revelation and if the other is not willing to consider that, they are left with what they have, physical data from the material world and if they are satisfied with that, they are satisfied. 

Regarding religion&#039;s contributions to science, most of the early scientists, and many today were and are religious and consider that their religions drive them to better understand the source of their beliefs through scientific research. A religious person should never be opposed to science as that faith should be based on what they consider truth and further discovery should should only validate that truth.  However, the major contribution to science that Biblical, especially Christianity has provided is the belief that God has created an orderly world that can be observed and understood by man&#039;s endeavors as opposed to a material/chance world governed by a capricious nature.  That belief has convinced many that scientific observation and discovery is a worthwhile effort as it is a way to better understand God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christian theology is basically composed of two camps.  Natural theology, Thomas Aquinas, believes that one can only come to faith by thinking.  Revelatory theology, Augustine, believes one comes to faith by revelation.  Most fundamentalist Christians are of the second camp.  A natural theologist might believe that one could and should present rational arguments for the existance of God and related beliefs thereto and might be inclined to argue with an atheist.  A revelatory theologist understands faith as the acceptance and knowledge of a supernatural revelation and that argumentation cannot create faith.  A revelatory theologist understands that there is no amount of scientific data or argument that can convince another of the reality of God, because God, by definition, stands outside nature.  The only thing a revelatory believer can offer is hope that the other will at some point receive or accept revelation and if the other is not willing to consider that, they are left with what they have, physical data from the material world and if they are satisfied with that, they are satisfied. </p>
<p>Regarding religion's contributions to science, most of the early scientists, and many today were and are religious and consider that their religions drive them to better understand the source of their beliefs through scientific research. A religious person should never be opposed to science as that faith should be based on what they consider truth and further discovery should should only validate that truth.  However, the major contribution to science that Biblical, especially Christianity has provided is the belief that God has created an orderly world that can be observed and understood by man's endeavors as opposed to a material/chance world governed by a capricious nature.  That belief has convinced many that scientific observation and discovery is a worthwhile effort as it is a way to better understand God.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren T. Kinleyside</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-56414</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren T. Kinleyside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-56414</guid>
		<description>Here is a link to a youtube clip of a debate between William B. Provine and Phillip E. Johnson at Stanford University, April 30, 1994.

Dr. Provine states precisely what Stroble ascribes to his beliefs at 2:30.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9W1Y_PmhSI&amp;feature=related</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a link to a youtube clip of a debate between William B. Provine and Phillip E. Johnson at Stanford University, April 30, 1994.</p>
<p>Dr. Provine states precisely what Stroble ascribes to his beliefs at 2:30.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9W1Y_PmhSI&amp;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9W1Y_PmhSI&amp;feature=related</a></p>
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		<title>By: undecided</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-50482</link>
		<dc:creator>undecided</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-50482</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pvRv3mwkV0

I saw this and was disappointed.  The atheist never addresses the argument being made.  

Any thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pvRv3mwkV0" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pvRv3mwkV0</a></p>
<p>I saw this and was disappointed.  The atheist never addresses the argument being made.  </p>
<p>Any thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: OMGF</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-48752</link>
		<dc:creator>OMGF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-48752</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Look, atheism as a world view is serious garbage!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Ah, then you have evidence of your god, or are you simply making an is/ought fallacy and/or argument from consequences?
&lt;blockquote&gt;Evolution and naturalism does not account ofr immaterial reality of our current world...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
What &quot;immaterial reality.&quot;  If you can show that it exists, then I&#039;ll be impressed.  And, it&#039;s no wonder that science and naturalism don&#039;t account for non-natural things.  It&#039;s pretty much tautological.
&lt;blockquote&gt;...and I haven&#039;t seen anybody make a good argument that our morals are only culturally commensurate...that&#039;s ridiculous for a number of reasons.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Slavery is immoral now.  That was easy.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Christianity may not be what you want it to be, but I tell you it&#039;s MUCH better than anything I&#039;ve seen including atheism with all of it&#039;s wishful and hopeful premises and thinking...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Ah, so hopeful premises and thinking related to some sky daddy is better than living in reality?  Sure it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Look, atheism as a world view is serious garbage!</p></blockquote>
<p>Ah, then you have evidence of your god, or are you simply making an is/ought fallacy and/or argument from consequences?</p>
<blockquote><p>Evolution and naturalism does not account ofr immaterial reality of our current world...</p></blockquote>
<p>What "immaterial reality."  If you can show that it exists, then I'll be impressed.  And, it's no wonder that science and naturalism don't account for non-natural things.  It's pretty much tautological.</p>
<blockquote><p>...and I haven't seen anybody make a good argument that our morals are only culturally commensurate...that's ridiculous for a number of reasons.</p></blockquote>
<p>Slavery is immoral now.  That was easy.</p>
<blockquote><p>Christianity may not be what you want it to be, but I tell you it's MUCH better than anything I've seen including atheism with all of it's wishful and hopeful premises and thinking...</p></blockquote>
<p>Ah, so hopeful premises and thinking related to some sky daddy is better than living in reality?  Sure it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-48741</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-48741</guid>
		<description>...now who can argue with that? ;P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>...now who can argue with that? ;P</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Burnett</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-48736</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Burnett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-48736</guid>
		<description>Strobel Said that Provine teaches: 
&lt;i&gt;&quot;there&#039;s no evidence for God&lt;/i&gt; 
&lt;i&gt;there&#039;s no life after death&lt;/i&gt; 
&lt;i&gt;there&#039;s no absolute foundation for right and wrong&lt;/i&gt; 
&lt;i&gt;there&#039;s no ultimate meaning for life&lt;/i&gt; 
&lt;i&gt;people don&#039;t really have free will [p.16]&lt;/i&gt; 

You said: &lt;i&gt;&quot;The obvious thing to do would be to e-mail Dr. Provine to find out if this quote really represents what he believes.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Ahhh, YEA, that&#039;s exactly what Provine believes and it&#039;s traggic. I heard him in his debate against Philip Johnson at Stanford Universtity lay it out &lt;b&gt;just like&lt;/b&gt; Strobel said. 

Look, atheism as a world view is serious garbage! The people such as your self are probably smart and many good people but the world view is horrible. Evolution and naturalism does not account ofr immaterial reality of our current world, and I haven&#039;t seen anybody make a good argument that our morals are only culturally commensurate...that&#039;s ridiculous for a number of reasons. 

Christianity may not be what you want it to be, but I tell you it&#039;s MUCH better than anything I&#039;ve seen including atheism with all of it&#039;s wishful and hopeful premises and thinking...now that the TRUTH RUTH!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strobel Said that Provine teaches:<br />
<i>"there's no evidence for God</i><br />
<i>there's no life after death</i><br />
<i>there's no absolute foundation for right and wrong</i><br />
<i>there's no ultimate meaning for life</i><br />
<i>people don't really have free will [p.16]</i> </p>
<p>You said: <i>"The obvious thing to do would be to e-mail Dr. Provine to find out if this quote really represents what he believes."</i></p>
<p>Ahhh, YEA, that's exactly what Provine believes and it's traggic. I heard him in his debate against Philip Johnson at Stanford Universtity lay it out <b>just like</b> Strobel said. </p>
<p>Look, atheism as a world view is serious garbage! The people such as your self are probably smart and many good people but the world view is horrible. Evolution and naturalism does not account ofr immaterial reality of our current world, and I haven't seen anybody make a good argument that our morals are only culturally commensurate...that's ridiculous for a number of reasons. </p>
<p>Christianity may not be what you want it to be, but I tell you it's MUCH better than anything I've seen including atheism with all of it's wishful and hopeful premises and thinking...now that the TRUTH RUTH!</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-46066</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-46066</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;&gt;I knew intuitively what prominent evolutionary biologist and historian William Provine of Cornell University would spell out explicitly in a debate years later. If Darwinism is true, he said, then there are five inescapable conclusions:

        * there&#039;s no evidence for God
        * there&#039;s no life after death
        * there&#039;s no absolute foundation for right and wrong
        * there&#039;s no ultimate meaning for life
        * people don&#039;t really have free will [p.16]

Even if the above were true, it would be far, far, far better than billions of humans (one is too many!) writhing in flames for eternity.  If Christians had any sense of empathy or compassion they would wish their religion to be false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;I knew intuitively what prominent evolutionary biologist and historian William Provine of Cornell University would spell out explicitly in a debate years later. If Darwinism is true, he said, then there are five inescapable conclusions:</p>
<p>        * there's no evidence for God<br />
        * there's no life after death<br />
        * there's no absolute foundation for right and wrong<br />
        * there's no ultimate meaning for life<br />
        * people don't really have free will [p.16]</p>
<p>Even if the above were true, it would be far, far, far better than billions of humans (one is too many!) writhing in flames for eternity.  If Christians had any sense of empathy or compassion they would wish their religion to be false.</p>
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		<title>By: ivy privy</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-46065</link>
		<dc:creator>ivy privy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-46065</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/dbxd3q&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Notebook &quot;M&quot; of Charles Darwin, 1838&lt;/a&gt;
21 years before Darwin published his theory of evolution by means of natural selection, he is already thinking about the implications for free will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/dbxd3q" rel="nofollow">Notebook "M" of Charles Darwin, 1838</a><br />
21 years before Darwin published his theory of evolution by means of natural selection, he is already thinking about the implications for free will.</p>
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		<title>By: John Nernoff</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/cfac-paging-dr-provine.html#comment-45996</link>
		<dc:creator>John Nernoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1005#comment-45996</guid>
		<description>A quick remark on the origin of life. Studies are proceeding exactly on evolutionary lines. The longer survival of particular chains or groups of molecules (RNA, DNA LIPID walls, AMINO ACIDS or any combination) is going to result in the formation of &quot;life.&quot; Eventual replication will follow. I am reading a 2006 book by Ruse which summarizes these efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick remark on the origin of life. Studies are proceeding exactly on evolutionary lines. The longer survival of particular chains or groups of molecules (RNA, DNA LIPID walls, AMINO ACIDS or any combination) is going to result in the formation of "life." Eventual replication will follow. I am reading a 2006 book by Ruse which summarizes these efforts.</p>
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