Comments on: Thoughtful Iconoclasts: A Response to Madeleine Bunting http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION. Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:09:52 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: AnswerToOldQuestion http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-64731 AnswerToOldQuestion Fri, 01 Apr 2011 01:22:06 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-64731 Re: terrence - <blockquote>Who was it who said "A nothing will do just as well as a something about which nothing can be said"</blockquote> Answer: Wittgenstein I realize the comment was from two years ago, though now if someone else is looking and finds this post, they'll have the answer. Re: terrence -
Who was it who said "A nothing will do just as well as a something about which nothing can be said"

Answer: Wittgenstein

I realize the comment was from two years ago, though now if someone else is looking and finds this post, they'll have the answer.

]]> By: Daylight Atheism > On Being Judgmental http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-60449 Daylight Atheism > On Being Judgmental Tue, 19 Oct 2010 01:08:42 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-60449 [...] when his followers ask him to, are dismissed as a "parody". This is similar to the way that other high-minded apologists dismiss all believers whose view of religion is different from their own as "not serious", [...] [...] when his followers ask him to, are dismissed as a "parody". This is similar to the way that other high-minded apologists dismiss all believers whose view of religion is different from their own as "not serious", [...]

]]> By: Leum http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45828 Leum Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:18:37 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45828 Greta, why do you always articulate things ten times better than me? That's exactly what I've been trying to say lately. Religion is very often a philosophy of life, not a set of supernatural beliefs, and equivocating between the two is dishonest. Even worse, it's annoying. Greta, why do you always articulate things ten times better than me? That's exactly what I've been trying to say lately. Religion is very often a philosophy of life, not a set of supernatural beliefs, and equivocating between the two is dishonest. Even worse, it's annoying.

]]> By: bbk http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45826 bbk Wed, 15 Apr 2009 04:32:05 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45826 Shifting goal posts, strawmen, and concern trolls. Typical. I say we keep doing whatever it is that we've been doing so that the next ARIS survey once again shows double the number of non-believers from before. It must not be that boring if our message of skepticism and reason is spreading faster than their fables and lies. Shifting goal posts, strawmen, and concern trolls. Typical. I say we keep doing whatever it is that we've been doing so that the next ARIS survey once again shows double the number of non-believers from before. It must not be that boring if our message of skepticism and reason is spreading faster than their fables and lies.

]]> By: Greta Christina http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45820 Greta Christina Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:30:26 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45820 Yup. I also want to point this out: <blockquote>Faith is not supposed to be about signing up to a set of propositions but practising a set of principles.</blockquote> Um... Ms. Bunting, what you have on your hands there is not a religion. It is a philosophy. I've run into this argument before: that religion isn't a supernatural hypothesis about the world. It isn't telling us what the world is -- it's telling us what the world should be. But then how is religion different from any other moral or political philosophy? If religion is just a set of principles, then what does that have to do with God or souls or heaven? Yup.

I also want to point this out:

Faith is not supposed to be about signing up to a set of propositions but practising a set of principles.

Um... Ms. Bunting, what you have on your hands there is not a religion. It is a philosophy.

I've run into this argument before: that religion isn't a supernatural hypothesis about the world. It isn't telling us what the world is -- it's telling us what the world should be. But then how is religion different from any other moral or political philosophy? If religion is just a set of principles, then what does that have to do with God or souls or heaven?

]]> By: terrence http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45818 terrence Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:42:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45818 In its place, she promotes an "apophatic" theology which claims that God so far surpasses our understanding that we can say nothing definite about him at all. Who was it who said "A nothing will do just as well as a something about which nothing can be said" In its place, she promotes an "apophatic" theology which claims that God so far surpasses our understanding that we can say nothing definite about him at all.

Who was it who said "A nothing will do just as well as a something about which nothing can be said"

]]> By: BlackSun http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45817 BlackSun Tue, 14 Apr 2009 04:00:22 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45817 Religious apologetics has never been anything but smoke, mirrors, and equivocation. Also a good deal of misdirection--which is the category into which Bunting's trope fits. She still can't prove the theology, so now she changes the subject and talks about how atheism is ruining everything. She's right of course. It will continue to "ruin everything" for the overwhelming majority of believers who wish to avoid thinking. And she hates the idea that we just don't accept that her position espousing the social necessity of Christian myths is self-evident. *Sigh* Good debunking. Religious apologetics has never been anything but smoke, mirrors, and equivocation. Also a good deal of misdirection--which is the category into which Bunting's trope fits.

She still can't prove the theology, so now she changes the subject and talks about how atheism is ruining everything. She's right of course. It will continue to "ruin everything" for the overwhelming majority of believers who wish to avoid thinking.

And she hates the idea that we just don't accept that her position espousing the social necessity of Christian myths is self-evident. *Sigh*

Good debunking.

]]> By: Abbie http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45816 Abbie Tue, 14 Apr 2009 03:28:32 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45816 <i>I doubt the effect will be maximized by bus ads due to the typically lower educated ridership of this method of mass transit. Get the ads on the seat backs in planes and you will achieve a higher result.</i> Excuse me? Way to be elitist. First of all, lots of different people use mass transit- like students, for one example. Second, why shouldn't "lower educated" people also be introduced to atheism? Isn't that a prime demographic to target? What is a "higher result"? I doubt the effect will be maximized by bus ads due to the typically lower educated ridership of this method of mass transit. Get the ads on the seat backs in planes and you will achieve a higher result.

Excuse me?

Way to be elitist. First of all, lots of different people use mass transit- like students, for one example.

Second, why shouldn't "lower educated" people also be introduced to atheism? Isn't that a prime demographic to target?

What is a "higher result"?

]]> By: Leum http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45815 Leum Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:05:31 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45815 CS Lewis very slyly and in a way that's more a general feeling than anything concrete implies a similar argument in <i>Mere Christianity</i>. The argument is essentially that God's existence isn't an up-down yes-no question. Then, n an amazing feat of equivocation God, who was argued to be more of an idea than a being, is suddenly tossed over the fence and the theologian smiles and says, "See, God's an idea and a set of principles and philosophies. And I believe in the idea and follow the principles and philosophies. Therefore, God is an existent being." I don't mind if people consider God to be a useful idea and religion to be important in their lives, and I don't care much if people believe in God without evidence and say so in the proud tradition of fideism and theistic existentialism. But it annoys the heck out of me when people claim that the ideas of God make God real, or that belief in a religion is identical to a belief in God. CS Lewis very slyly and in a way that's more a general feeling than anything concrete implies a similar argument in Mere Christianity. The argument is essentially that God's existence isn't an up-down yes-no question. Then, n an amazing feat of equivocation God, who was argued to be more of an idea than a being, is suddenly tossed over the fence and the theologian smiles and says, "See, God's an idea and a set of principles and philosophies. And I believe in the idea and follow the principles and philosophies. Therefore, God is an existent being."

I don't mind if people consider God to be a useful idea and religion to be important in their lives, and I don't care much if people believe in God without evidence and say so in the proud tradition of fideism and theistic existentialism. But it annoys the heck out of me when people claim that the ideas of God make God real, or that belief in a religion is identical to a belief in God.

]]> By: velkyn http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45809 velkyn Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:38:46 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45809 "By junking the Christian myths, the danger is that the replacements are "cruder, less tested, less instructive"." Just how can anything be cruder than a being that requires a blood sacrifice to "save" people from the problems it started? Ms. Bunting is just one more person who wants atheists to stop rocking the boat. Sorry, dear, but I will stand up when told to sit down by the ignorat likes of you. Your holy book describes your God and I find that God horrific. You may wish to create your own deity so that it isn't so distasteful, but you are doing it out of whole cloth, just one more Christian who is sure that they know what God "really meant" and who doesn't want to be associated with such atrocities. "By junking the Christian myths, the danger is that the replacements are "cruder, less tested, less instructive"."

Just how can anything be cruder than a being that requires a blood sacrifice to "save" people from the problems it started?

Ms. Bunting is just one more person who wants atheists to stop rocking the boat. Sorry, dear, but I will stand up when told to sit down by the ignorat likes of you. Your holy book describes your God and I find that God horrific. You may wish to create your own deity so that it isn't so distasteful, but you are doing it out of whole cloth, just one more Christian who is sure that they know what God "really meant" and who doesn't want to be associated with such atrocities.

]]> By: Reginald Selkirk http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45807 Reginald Selkirk Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:33:15 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45807 "<i>What worries Gray is that we forget at our peril that all systems of thought rely on myth.</i>" Wha-a-a-a-at? I don't buy this premise, which means of course that I don't buy the further arguments based on it. "What worries Gray is that we forget at our peril that all systems of thought rely on myth."

Wha-a-a-a-at? I don't buy this premise, which means of course that I don't buy the further arguments based on it.

]]> By: random guy http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/04/thoughtful-iconoclasts.html#comment-45806 random guy Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:23:10 +0000 http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=999#comment-45806 The fact that she calls her religion "Christian Myths" is very telling of what she really believes. I know a lot of Christians that would be deeply offended if their cherished beliefs were referred to as myths. The fact that she willingly self-applies this phrase to her own beliefs shows a fundamental disconnect between her and the average practicing Christian. Its like Ebon said shes a theologian this is all just an intellectual debate to her. She seems to doubt the seriousness and often simple straightforward natures of the majority of theists. To them these stories are not myths, they are the one literal, inerrant, revealed truth of the almighty God. She doesn't seem to understand that mentality is the one atheists are objecting too, frankly she doesn't even seem to recognize it exists. The fact that she calls her religion "Christian Myths" is very telling of what she really believes. I know a lot of Christians that would be deeply offended if their cherished beliefs were referred to as myths.

The fact that she willingly self-applies this phrase to her own beliefs shows a fundamental disconnect between her and the average practicing Christian. Its like Ebon said shes a theologian this is all just an intellectual debate to her. She seems to doubt the seriousness and often simple straightforward natures of the majority of theists. To them these stories are not myths, they are the one literal, inerrant, revealed truth of the almighty God. She doesn't seem to understand that mentality is the one atheists are objecting too, frankly she doesn't even seem to recognize it exists.

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