<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Epicurus&#039; World</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:09:52 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Daylight Atheism &#62; Spotlighting Atheism in Greece</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-60464</link>
		<dc:creator>Daylight Atheism &#62; Spotlighting Atheism in Greece</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2010 01:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-60464</guid>
		<description>[...] Greece was the birthplace of Western philosophy, as well as the home of some of history&#039;s first freethinkers, it seems only fitting that it should have a lively atheist movement. And what do you know, it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Greece was the birthplace of Western philosophy, as well as the home of some of history&#39;s first freethinkers, it seems only fitting that it should have a lively atheist movement. And what do you know, it [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47734</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47734</guid>
		<description>Atomos = uncuttable
I think a debate about whether matter could be split in half over and over and over again would quite rightly come to the point where somebody could come to the conclusion that it can&#039;t. I Have to agree with Ross here, it was only a 50-50 guess and Epicurious happened to be on the right side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atomos = uncuttable<br />
I think a debate about whether matter could be split in half over and over and over again would quite rightly come to the point where somebody could come to the conclusion that it can't. I Have to agree with Ross here, it was only a 50-50 guess and Epicurious happened to be on the right side.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47479</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 11:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47479</guid>
		<description>The closest thing to those Greek and Indian philosophers&#039; atoms is likely the elementary particles of the Standard Model and its extensions. Those philosophers&#039; atoms were more-or-less impenetrable solid objects, while elementary particles are understood with quantum field theory, which states that they have both particle and wave properties.

Wave-particle duality is something that no philosopher had ever anticipated.

Furthermore, elementary particles can easily be created and destroyed by appropriate interactions, instead of being uncreated and indestructible or close to that, as those atomists had believed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The closest thing to those Greek and Indian philosophers' atoms is likely the elementary particles of the Standard Model and its extensions. Those philosophers' atoms were more-or-less impenetrable solid objects, while elementary particles are understood with quantum field theory, which states that they have both particle and wave properties.</p>
<p>Wave-particle duality is something that no philosopher had ever anticipated.</p>
<p>Furthermore, elementary particles can easily be created and destroyed by appropriate interactions, instead of being uncreated and indestructible or close to that, as those atomists had believed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47477</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 05:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47477</guid>
		<description>As to whether Epicurus was simply a lucky guesser, I would have to say &quot;yes&quot;, but the odds against it were only about 50-50.  Once the question is asked &quot;is matter infinitely divisible&quot;, there really are only 2 answers.  Therefore, if Epicurus &lt;em&gt;had&lt;/em&gt; claimed divine influence for atomism then this would be unconvincing as evidence for a god or gods since it was so easily guessed at.  The real genius here is even asking the question in the first place (does anyone here know who originally asked it?) but that&#039;s not something that would have required any divine influence, merely a sharp mind.
What&#039;s also interesting to note is that what we call &#039;atoms&#039; are not actually the indivisible atoms envisioned by Epicurus, since we have rather famously split them.  So far as we know, electrons and quarks are a better match, but it is of course difficult to prove this for certain.  That said, it is fundamental to quantum physics that Epicurian atomism holds at some level or another.
One unanswered question in modern physics is the size of the fundamental particles; are they point-like, or do they have a finite (nonzero, but tiny) size?  A quick trawl of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt; reveals that Democritus believed they had size, and some Indian Buddhists believed they were point-like.  If and when this question is finally settled by physics, it will hardly constitute vindication of the complete philosophy behind either of these viewpoints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to whether Epicurus was simply a lucky guesser, I would have to say "yes", but the odds against it were only about 50-50.  Once the question is asked "is matter infinitely divisible", there really are only 2 answers.  Therefore, if Epicurus <em>had</em> claimed divine influence for atomism then this would be unconvincing as evidence for a god or gods since it was so easily guessed at.  The real genius here is even asking the question in the first place (does anyone here know who originally asked it?) but that's not something that would have required any divine influence, merely a sharp mind.<br />
What's also interesting to note is that what we call 'atoms' are not actually the indivisible atoms envisioned by Epicurus, since we have rather famously split them.  So far as we know, electrons and quarks are a better match, but it is of course difficult to prove this for certain.  That said, it is fundamental to quantum physics that Epicurian atomism holds at some level or another.<br />
One unanswered question in modern physics is the size of the fundamental particles; are they point-like, or do they have a finite (nonzero, but tiny) size?  A quick trawl of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a> reveals that Democritus believed they had size, and some Indian Buddhists believed they were point-like.  If and when this question is finally settled by physics, it will hardly constitute vindication of the complete philosophy behind either of these viewpoints.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47476</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 04:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47476</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Well, technically, matter and energy are two sides of the same coin according to special relativity. I realize that isn&#039;t very relevant to Wayne&#039;s statements. Just thought I&#039;d offer that bit.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
On the contrary, I suspect it&#039;s highly relevant.  It seems to be a standard New Age tactic to take an established fact of science (mass-energy equivalence, in this case), then redefine some of the terms (and &#039;energy&#039; is a favourite here) to create a new piece of spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
I recall a time when a friend of a friend tried to explain to me how we&#039;re all immortal, since our energy cannot be destroyed.  I don&#039;t recall having any great success in convincing her that the energy that physicists are talking about in the conservation of energy is entirely separate from the New Age concept of &#039;energy&#039;.
Quantum mysticism is another fine example of this kind of recasting of the laws of physics into a realm where they no longer apply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Well, technically, matter and energy are two sides of the same coin according to special relativity. I realize that isn't very relevant to Wayne's statements. Just thought I'd offer that bit.</p></blockquote>
<p>On the contrary, I suspect it's highly relevant.  It seems to be a standard New Age tactic to take an established fact of science (mass-energy equivalence, in this case), then redefine some of the terms (and 'energy' is a favourite here) to create a new piece of spiritual mumbo-jumbo.<br />
I recall a time when a friend of a friend tried to explain to me how we're all immortal, since our energy cannot be destroyed.  I don't recall having any great success in convincing her that the energy that physicists are talking about in the conservation of energy is entirely separate from the New Age concept of 'energy'.<br />
Quantum mysticism is another fine example of this kind of recasting of the laws of physics into a realm where they no longer apply.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47475</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 01:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47475</guid>
		<description>Johan, why do you say that? The first guess that one may have is that matter is infinitely divisible, that one can never stop dividing it.

But mixtures would naturally be explained by atomism. If you dissolve salt in water, you could conclude that the salt atoms get mixed with the water atoms. That&#039;s actually pretty close to the truth; water &quot;atoms&quot; are nowadays called molecules, and table salt breaks down into sodium and chlorine atoms.

In fact, atomism even explains the phenomenon of diffusion. If you open a bottle of perfume at one end of a room, it will make first that part of it smell like perfume, and later the rest of the room. The perfume atoms would bounce off of the air atoms and slowly travel. And the same for introducing anything else with a strong-enough smell. We&#039;d now say &quot;molecules&quot;, but that principle is correct.

A counterargument to the mixture and diffusion arguments would be how light can travel through other materials; that could be an argument that continuous materials can overlap.

I don&#039;t know if any pre-Dalton atomist noted how nicely atomism explains mixtures and diffusion, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johan, why do you say that? The first guess that one may have is that matter is infinitely divisible, that one can never stop dividing it.</p>
<p>But mixtures would naturally be explained by atomism. If you dissolve salt in water, you could conclude that the salt atoms get mixed with the water atoms. That's actually pretty close to the truth; water "atoms" are nowadays called molecules, and table salt breaks down into sodium and chlorine atoms.</p>
<p>In fact, atomism even explains the phenomenon of diffusion. If you open a bottle of perfume at one end of a room, it will make first that part of it smell like perfume, and later the rest of the room. The perfume atoms would bounce off of the air atoms and slowly travel. And the same for introducing anything else with a strong-enough smell. We'd now say "molecules", but that principle is correct.</p>
<p>A counterargument to the mixture and diffusion arguments would be how light can travel through other materials; that could be an argument that continuous materials can overlap.</p>
<p>I don't know if any pre-Dalton atomist noted how nicely atomism explains mixtures and diffusion, however.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Johan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47473</link>
		<dc:creator>Johan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 22:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47473</guid>
		<description>When I saw the title, I thought it would be about the Epicurean philosophy in general, and not atomism. Anyways, interesting read.

As for the following discussion whether atomism is just pure speculation or not, I think that to an extent, it is speculative. Neither Epicurus or Democritus could actually conduct experiments to test it. However, it is not necessary that it was conjured out of nothing. One could observe, for instance, that if you cut something, for instance a tree, apart into two, then one of these into two, then one of these into two, it becomes smaller and smaller. It isn&#039;t very far-fetched to guess - based upon that - that the tree in end is made up of very small parts that can&#039;t be divided, i.e atoms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I saw the title, I thought it would be about the Epicurean philosophy in general, and not atomism. Anyways, interesting read.</p>
<p>As for the following discussion whether atomism is just pure speculation or not, I think that to an extent, it is speculative. Neither Epicurus or Democritus could actually conduct experiments to test it. However, it is not necessary that it was conjured out of nothing. One could observe, for instance, that if you cut something, for instance a tree, apart into two, then one of these into two, then one of these into two, it becomes smaller and smaller. It isn't very far-fetched to guess - based upon that - that the tree in end is made up of very small parts that can't be divided, i.e atoms.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: UNRR</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47463</link>
		<dc:creator>UNRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 11:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47463</guid>
		<description>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 5/30/2009, at &lt;a href=&quot;http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Unreligious Right&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 5/30/2009, at <a href="http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The Unreligious Right</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lpetrich</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47462</link>
		<dc:creator>lpetrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 06:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47462</guid>
		<description>Was there &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; empirical support for pre-Dalton atomism?

In any case, John Dalton in 1803 showed how atomism could account for the recently-discovered Law of Definite Proportions. Joseph Proust had discovered around then that some &quot;mixtures&quot; of elements come in definite proportions, though others did not. When iron rusts, it consumes an amount of oxygen in proportion to the rusted iron. John Dalton explained that by proposing that a certain number of iron atoms combines with a certain number of oxygen atoms when making rust. He was even able to make an empirically-based table of relative masses of atoms, something that no previous atomist seems to have tried.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was there <i>any</i> empirical support for pre-Dalton atomism?</p>
<p>In any case, John Dalton in 1803 showed how atomism could account for the recently-discovered Law of Definite Proportions. Joseph Proust had discovered around then that some "mixtures" of elements come in definite proportions, though others did not. When iron rusts, it consumes an amount of oxygen in proportion to the rusted iron. John Dalton explained that by proposing that a certain number of iron atoms combines with a certain number of oxygen atoms when making rust. He was even able to make an empirically-based table of relative masses of atoms, something that no previous atomist seems to have tried.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47461</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 06:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47461</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The universe is populated by stable things. A stable thing is a collection of atoms that is permanent enough or common enough to deserve a name. It may be a unique collection of atoms, such as the Matterhorn, that lasts long enough to be worth naming. Or it may be a class of entities, such as rain drops, that come into existence at a sufficiently high rate to deserve a collective name, even if any one of them is short-lived. The things that we see around us, and which we think of as needing explanation – rocks, galaxies, ocean waves – are all, to a greater or lesser extent, stable patterns of atoms.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

~ Richard Dawkins, &lt;i&gt;The Selfish Gene&lt;/i&gt; (p12)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The universe is populated by stable things. A stable thing is a collection of atoms that is permanent enough or common enough to deserve a name. It may be a unique collection of atoms, such as the Matterhorn, that lasts long enough to be worth naming. Or it may be a class of entities, such as rain drops, that come into existence at a sufficiently high rate to deserve a collective name, even if any one of them is short-lived. The things that we see around us, and which we think of as needing explanation – rocks, galaxies, ocean waves – are all, to a greater or lesser extent, stable patterns of atoms.</p></blockquote>
<p>~ Richard Dawkins, <i>The Selfish Gene</i> (p12)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47460</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 04:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47460</guid>
		<description>abusedbypenguins, I&#039;m not sure I follow your last post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>abusedbypenguins, I'm not sure I follow your last post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/05/epicurus-world.html#comment-47459</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 04:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1037#comment-47459</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite&gt;&quot;I can only imagine matter as an extension of energy/consciousness...&quot;
Wayne?
Really?
This statement is complete New Age meaninglessness.
Energy = the capacity to do work. Ask a physicist, not a healing crystal salesperson. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, technically, matter and energy are two sides of the same coin according to special relativity. I realize that isn&#039;t very relevant to Wayne&#039;s statements. Just thought I&#039;d offer that bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite><p>"I can only imagine matter as an extension of energy/consciousness..."<br />
Wayne?<br />
Really?<br />
This statement is complete New Age meaninglessness.<br />
Energy = the capacity to do work. Ask a physicist, not a healing crystal salesperson. </p></blockquote>
<p>Well, technically, matter and energy are two sides of the same coin according to special relativity. I realize that isn't very relevant to Wayne's statements. Just thought I'd offer that bit.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

