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	<title>Comments on: The Case for a Creator: Small Twigs</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Daylight Atheism &#62; The Case for a Creator: Anticuriosity</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-60436</link>
		<dc:creator>Daylight Atheism &#62; The Case for a Creator: Anticuriosity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2010 01:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] short to have allowed for the kind of large-scale changes that the fossils reflect&quot; [p.240]. I&#039;ve already discussed Jonathan Wells&#039; similar confusion about the Cambrian explosion, so I won&#039;t repeat those remarks. Instead, I want to focus on one [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] short to have allowed for the kind of large-scale changes that the fossils reflect&quot; [p.240]. I&#39;ve already discussed Jonathan Wells&#39; similar confusion about the Cambrian explosion, so I won&#39;t repeat those remarks. Instead, I want to focus on one [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48146</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48146</guid>
		<description>A piece of news from Hong Kong. A civil group which I belong, called &quot;Hong Kong Concern Group for Science Education&quot;, have started a campaign to urge our policy make to keep Creationism/Intelligent Design out of biology curriculum.
Today we achieved a great step:
Victory for Darwin
Creationism rejected in new guidelines on the biology curriculum
Liz Heron
Jun 26, 2009
 
The Education Bureau has announced that creationism and intelligent design will form no part of the senior secondary biology curriculum.
The move has been hailed as a victory by leading scientists at the University of Hong Kong, who in February called for curriculum guidance on evolution to be upgraded to reflect current scientific thinking.
 
The four scientists, who include dean of science Sun Kwok and science faculty board chairman David Dudgeon, accused the bureau of encouraging schools to promote creationism in biology lessons through the guidelines.
 
The Concern Group for Hong Kong Science Education, which is lobbying for changes to the guidelines, has also welcomed the paper but says it does not go far enough.
 
The calls were prompted by a clause in the biology guide, which comes into force in September, that states: “In addition to Darwin’s theory, students are encouraged to explore other explanations for evolution and the origins of life.”
 
The bureau’s paper was drawn up for the Legislative Council’s education panel, after the Concern Group called for a panel debate on the issue. The panel demanded a report from the bureau and postponed a decision on the debate. Last month, the row intensified when the “group of 64″ mounted a counter-offensive calling for the clause to be retained.
 
The bureau’s paper points out that the curriculum aims to strengthen students’ understanding of scientific inquiry in biology and its links with technology, society and the environment.
 
“In the topic `Evolution’, the emphasis is put on Darwin’s Theory, as it is currently the most widely accepted scientific theory on evolution,” it states. “Students are expected to understand the process and mechanism of evolution based on Darwin’s Theory. Students should recognise that biological knowledge and theories are developed through observations, hypotheses, experimentations and analyses and [be] aware of the dynamic nature of biological knowledge.”
The paper also states: “In the biology curriculum framework, creationism or intelligent design, which was mentioned in the recent submissions to the Legislative Council panel on education concerning the biology curriculum, is not included. In addition to Darwin’s Theory, students are encouraged to explore other explanations on evolution such as that of Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and Sir Alfred Russel Wallace.” It stresses that non-scientific explanations are not included.
Professor Dudgeon said: “The bureau has recognised that the Darwinian theory of evolution constitutes the core of modern biology and that intelligent design and creationism have no place in the modern science curriculum.
 
“It is a victory for the students and it will help to ensure that our science teaching remains world class. Clearly this guidance needs to be circulated to all secondary schools before the next semester.”
 
Concern Group founder Virginia Yue Wai-sin, said the paper only partially met demands in its petition for action by the bureau. “It is moving in the right direction,” she said. “They have excluded creationism and intelligent design from the curriculum and they also emphasise scientific methods in greater detail. Yet they have just failed to take the critical step of saying that intelligent design and creationism are not science. We will continue to pursue answers to these questions with the bureau.”
 
The “group of 64″, which includes 40 academics and seven teachers, argued that there was no universally accepted definition of science. But spokesman Stephen Tsui Kwok-wing, a molecular biologist at Chinese University, said yesterday: “We accept and respect the clarification of the biology curriculum guidelines from the Education Bureau. We reiterate that the purpose of our letter was not to promote the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in secondary schools.”
 
However, “group of 64″ member Chris Beling, an associate professor in HKU’s physics department, said: “The EDB’s response has many good points but its tacit approval of Darwin’s theory, which has so many blatant errors, is not commendable.
 
“Understandably, Bible-based creationism is not to be taught as science, but it is regrettable that intelligent design is lumped in the same basket, seeing it has all the characteristics of good science. Fortunately, these are only guidelines and we live in a free society.”
 
An Education Bureau spokeswoman said the paper was based on the 138-page biology curriculum and assessment guide for the new senior secondary curriculum and its interpretation demanded a “holistic” understanding of the guide.
 
Cyd Ho Sau-lan, chairwoman of Legco’s education panel, said: “I find paragraph five enough to tell the stance of the administration. It says very clearly that intelligent design or creationism is not included.”
 
She hoped the debate was now over. “I don’t think the panel is in a position to engage itself in a debate between theologians and scientists. It could be an endless one,” she said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A piece of news from Hong Kong. A civil group which I belong, called "Hong Kong Concern Group for Science Education", have started a campaign to urge our policy make to keep Creationism/Intelligent Design out of biology curriculum.<br />
Today we achieved a great step:<br />
Victory for Darwin<br />
Creationism rejected in new guidelines on the biology curriculum<br />
Liz Heron<br />
Jun 26, 2009</p>
<p>The Education Bureau has announced that creationism and intelligent design will form no part of the senior secondary biology curriculum.<br />
The move has been hailed as a victory by leading scientists at the University of Hong Kong, who in February called for curriculum guidance on evolution to be upgraded to reflect current scientific thinking.</p>
<p>The four scientists, who include dean of science Sun Kwok and science faculty board chairman David Dudgeon, accused the bureau of encouraging schools to promote creationism in biology lessons through the guidelines.</p>
<p>The Concern Group for Hong Kong Science Education, which is lobbying for changes to the guidelines, has also welcomed the paper but says it does not go far enough.</p>
<p>The calls were prompted by a clause in the biology guide, which comes into force in September, that states: “In addition to Darwin’s theory, students are encouraged to explore other explanations for evolution and the origins of life.”</p>
<p>The bureau’s paper was drawn up for the Legislative Council’s education panel, after the Concern Group called for a panel debate on the issue. The panel demanded a report from the bureau and postponed a decision on the debate. Last month, the row intensified when the “group of 64″ mounted a counter-offensive calling for the clause to be retained.</p>
<p>The bureau’s paper points out that the curriculum aims to strengthen students’ understanding of scientific inquiry in biology and its links with technology, society and the environment.</p>
<p>“In the topic `Evolution’, the emphasis is put on Darwin’s Theory, as it is currently the most widely accepted scientific theory on evolution,” it states. “Students are expected to understand the process and mechanism of evolution based on Darwin’s Theory. Students should recognise that biological knowledge and theories are developed through observations, hypotheses, experimentations and analyses and [be] aware of the dynamic nature of biological knowledge.”<br />
The paper also states: “In the biology curriculum framework, creationism or intelligent design, which was mentioned in the recent submissions to the Legislative Council panel on education concerning the biology curriculum, is not included. In addition to Darwin’s Theory, students are encouraged to explore other explanations on evolution such as that of Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and Sir Alfred Russel Wallace.” It stresses that non-scientific explanations are not included.<br />
Professor Dudgeon said: “The bureau has recognised that the Darwinian theory of evolution constitutes the core of modern biology and that intelligent design and creationism have no place in the modern science curriculum.</p>
<p>“It is a victory for the students and it will help to ensure that our science teaching remains world class. Clearly this guidance needs to be circulated to all secondary schools before the next semester.”</p>
<p>Concern Group founder Virginia Yue Wai-sin, said the paper only partially met demands in its petition for action by the bureau. “It is moving in the right direction,” she said. “They have excluded creationism and intelligent design from the curriculum and they also emphasise scientific methods in greater detail. Yet they have just failed to take the critical step of saying that intelligent design and creationism are not science. We will continue to pursue answers to these questions with the bureau.”</p>
<p>The “group of 64″, which includes 40 academics and seven teachers, argued that there was no universally accepted definition of science. But spokesman Stephen Tsui Kwok-wing, a molecular biologist at Chinese University, said yesterday: “We accept and respect the clarification of the biology curriculum guidelines from the Education Bureau. We reiterate that the purpose of our letter was not to promote the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in secondary schools.”</p>
<p>However, “group of 64″ member Chris Beling, an associate professor in HKU’s physics department, said: “The EDB’s response has many good points but its tacit approval of Darwin’s theory, which has so many blatant errors, is not commendable.</p>
<p>“Understandably, Bible-based creationism is not to be taught as science, but it is regrettable that intelligent design is lumped in the same basket, seeing it has all the characteristics of good science. Fortunately, these are only guidelines and we live in a free society.”</p>
<p>An Education Bureau spokeswoman said the paper was based on the 138-page biology curriculum and assessment guide for the new senior secondary curriculum and its interpretation demanded a “holistic” understanding of the guide.</p>
<p>Cyd Ho Sau-lan, chairwoman of Legco’s education panel, said: “I find paragraph five enough to tell the stance of the administration. It says very clearly that intelligent design or creationism is not included.”</p>
<p>She hoped the debate was now over. “I don’t think the panel is in a position to engage itself in a debate between theologians and scientists. It could be an endless one,” she said.</p>
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		<title>By: milukfrog</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48088</link>
		<dc:creator>milukfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48088</guid>
		<description>Prase - some conservative Christians take the Babel story pretty literally.  I studied linguistics, and a couple of years ago I was talking to my brother-in-law about languages and how they change over time.  His wife piped up that, of course, the changes all started with what happened at Babel!  I nearly choked.  To keep the family peace, I did not confront her on it.  And, I was so shocked, I don&#039;t think I could have formulated a coherent answer anyway.  
So, one bit of anecdata.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prase - some conservative Christians take the Babel story pretty literally.  I studied linguistics, and a couple of years ago I was talking to my brother-in-law about languages and how they change over time.  His wife piped up that, of course, the changes all started with what happened at Babel!  I nearly choked.  To keep the family peace, I did not confront her on it.  And, I was so shocked, I don't think I could have formulated a coherent answer anyway.<br />
So, one bit of anecdata.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: John Nernoff</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48046</link>
		<dc:creator>John Nernoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:25:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48046</guid>
		<description>By the way, realize that Babel is in chapter 11 of Genesis: this is where &quot;God&quot; deliberately confused (yet another wonderful example of the malevolence of the demon Yahweh) the speech of man into different languages.

Yet in chapter 10, we can learn that already, man had divided itself into many tribes, each with its own language. This is a Biblical discrepancy not well known among critics of the Bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, realize that Babel is in chapter 11 of Genesis: this is where "God" deliberately confused (yet another wonderful example of the malevolence of the demon Yahweh) the speech of man into different languages.</p>
<p>Yet in chapter 10, we can learn that already, man had divided itself into many tribes, each with its own language. This is a Biblical discrepancy not well known among critics of the Bible.</p>
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		<title>By: Reginald Selkirk</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48045</link>
		<dc:creator>Reginald Selkirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 02:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48045</guid>
		<description>For a good modern treatment of the fossil record, written as a response to Creationist distortions, see &lt;i&gt;Evolution: What the fossils say and why it matters&lt;/i&gt; by Donald R Prothero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a good modern treatment of the fossil record, written as a response to Creationist distortions, see <i>Evolution: What the fossils say and why it matters</i> by Donald R Prothero.</p>
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		<title>By: PaulJ</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48032</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48032</guid>
		<description>@prase

I have a four-page pamphlet (purchased for 15p at my &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.evilburnee.co.uk/2009/02/heres-boris-who-frolicked-with-early.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;local creationist museum&lt;/a&gt;) entitled &quot;Language: has it evolved?&quot; by Dr. Clifford Wilson (Creation Science Movement, 1984). He quotes Chomsky to support his contention that, no, it hasn&#039;t. I haven&#039;t (yet) examined it in detail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@prase</p>
<p>I have a four-page pamphlet (purchased for 15p at my <a href="http://www.evilburnee.co.uk/2009/02/heres-boris-who-frolicked-with-early.html" rel="nofollow">local creationist museum</a>) entitled "Language: has it evolved?" by Dr. Clifford Wilson (Creation Science Movement, 1984). He quotes Chomsky to support his contention that, no, it hasn't. I haven't (yet) examined it in detail.</p>
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		<title>By: prase</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48022</link>
		<dc:creator>prase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48022</guid>
		<description>One more thing - I always wanted to know whether creationists also deny that languages evolve and insist on the veracity of the story of tower of Babel. To be consistent they should, but I haven&#039;t seen any indicaten that they do. What a pity. Just imagine the opportunities: irreducibly complex grammar, absence of transitional languages... could a tornado in a printing factory produce a sensible dictionary?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing - I always wanted to know whether creationists also deny that languages evolve and insist on the veracity of the story of tower of Babel. To be consistent they should, but I haven't seen any indicaten that they do. What a pity. Just imagine the opportunities: irreducibly complex grammar, absence of transitional languages... could a tornado in a printing factory produce a sensible dictionary?</p>
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		<title>By: prase</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48021</link>
		<dc:creator>prase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48021</guid>
		<description>Another analogy could be the evolution of languages. Isn&#039;t it strange that already in the earliest written records all major groups (Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic, Sino-Tibetan, Uralic...) were there?

To see the fallacy, it&#039;s enough to think a little about it. If we classify anything genealogically and the record is broken somewhere in the past, the branches at some level must appear &quot;suddenly&quot;, without regard to detailed specifics of the evolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another analogy could be the evolution of languages. Isn't it strange that already in the earliest written records all major groups (Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic, Sino-Tibetan, Uralic...) were there?</p>
<p>To see the fallacy, it's enough to think a little about it. If we classify anything genealogically and the record is broken somewhere in the past, the branches at some level must appear "suddenly", without regard to detailed specifics of the evolution.</p>
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		<title>By: Purple</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48013</link>
		<dc:creator>Purple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48013</guid>
		<description>I just want to state my appreciation for this post; I had read this chapter a couple of years earlier and it really confused me, but Ebonmuse explains it in wonderful detail and clarity. Thank you. =]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to state my appreciation for this post; I had read this chapter a couple of years earlier and it really confused me, but Ebonmuse explains it in wonderful detail and clarity. Thank you. =]</p>
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		<title>By: Modusoperandi</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48006</link>
		<dc:creator>Modusoperandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48006</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;These animals, which are so fundamentally different in their body plans, appear fully developed, all of a sudden...&lt;/i&gt;
Of course, by &quot;all of a sudden&quot; he means over a period of up to 80,000,000 years.

&lt;b&gt;Andrew&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;&quot;Also, wernt most pre-cambrian creatures soft bodied, and thus unlikely to leave fossils behind?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
Pretty much. The Ediacaran had &lt;a href=&quot;http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&amp;um=1&amp;sa=1&amp;q=ediacaran+fossil&amp;aq=f&amp;oq=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;goo and worms and whatnot&lt;/a&gt;, some of which have been found, while the Devonian &lt;a href=&quot;http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&amp;q=devonian%20fossil&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wi&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;really started to branch out&lt;/a&gt;. Remember, though that in the Deluge, they only place lower in the so-called &quot;geologic column&quot; because they couldn&#039;t swim as well as more advanced kinds, like chimpanzees and butterflies. I shit you not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>These animals, which are so fundamentally different in their body plans, appear fully developed, all of a sudden...</i><br />
Of course, by "all of a sudden" he means over a period of up to 80,000,000 years.</p>
<p><b>Andrew</b> <i>"Also, wernt most pre-cambrian creatures soft bodied, and thus unlikely to leave fossils behind?"</i><br />
Pretty much. The Ediacaran had <a href="http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&amp;um=1&amp;sa=1&amp;q=ediacaran+fossil&amp;aq=f&amp;oq=" rel="nofollow">goo and worms and whatnot</a>, some of which have been found, while the Devonian <a href="http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&amp;q=devonian%20fossil&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wi" rel="nofollow">really started to branch out</a>. Remember, though that in the Deluge, they only place lower in the so-called "geologic column" because they couldn't swim as well as more advanced kinds, like chimpanzees and butterflies. I shit you not.</p>
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		<title>By: Leum</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48005</link>
		<dc:creator>Leum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48005</guid>
		<description>Yes. Even most Cambrian organisms left little or no trace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. Even most Cambrian organisms left little or no trace.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/cfac-small-twigs.html#comment-48003</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1058#comment-48003</guid>
		<description>Also, wernt most pre-cambrian creatures soft bodied, and thus unlikely to leave fossils behind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, wernt most pre-cambrian creatures soft bodied, and thus unlikely to leave fossils behind?</p>
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