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	<title>Comments on: Fundamentalism Is Alive and Well: A Reply to John Shelby Spong</title>
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		<title>By: BruceA</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47769</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47769</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;[Daniel Dennet] points out that moderate religion tends to break down in a couple/few generations... but extremist religion is much more resilient.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d like to know how Dennet defines &quot;moderate religion.&quot; If he means it as a synonym for &quot;moderately religious,&quot; he&#039;s probably right. However, I&#039;d suggest that any religion that doesn&#039;t claim to have an exclusive hold on the truth qualifies as moderate. Some of these (Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism) have been around for millennia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>[Daniel Dennet] points out that moderate religion tends to break down in a couple/few generations... but extremist religion is much more resilient.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'd like to know how Dennet defines "moderate religion." If he means it as a synonym for "moderately religious," he's probably right. However, I'd suggest that any religion that doesn't claim to have an exclusive hold on the truth qualifies as moderate. Some of these (Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism) have been around for millennia.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47767</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47767</guid>
		<description>Fundimentalists may still be pushing their agenda, but fewer people are listening.  Enough that, for now they are still a political force, but I suspect that will change within all of ourlifetimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fundimentalists may still be pushing their agenda, but fewer people are listening.  Enough that, for now they are still a political force, but I suspect that will change within all of ourlifetimes.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47765</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47765</guid>
		<description>Spong is a moron. Why doesn&#039;t he come out of the closet as a New Atheist?

And no,vthe fundamentalists are not weak. They have suffered setbacks, but they are still strong. They&#039;ve openly stated their agenda and will not stop until we have the power to make them stop. They want all fags and dykes to be bashed. They want women&#039;s sexuality to be slut-shamed into nonexistence. They want atheists driven from the public sphere. Fundies are THE ENEMY. We will never be free until they are weak and marginalized. We have no other hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spong is a moron. Why doesn't he come out of the closet as a New Atheist?</p>
<p>And no,vthe fundamentalists are not weak. They have suffered setbacks, but they are still strong. They've openly stated their agenda and will not stop until we have the power to make them stop. They want all fags and dykes to be bashed. They want women's sexuality to be slut-shamed into nonexistence. They want atheists driven from the public sphere. Fundies are THE ENEMY. We will never be free until they are weak and marginalized. We have no other hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47746</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47746</guid>
		<description>Belief in a God of all things and religious fundamentalism are more cultural and even tribal than rational. If rationality determined such things, religion would have dried up and blown away long since. I don&#039;t think it will go ever go away and all predictions that &quot;the opium of the masses&quot; will disappear have proved premature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Belief in a God of all things and religious fundamentalism are more cultural and even tribal than rational. If rationality determined such things, religion would have dried up and blown away long since. I don't think it will go ever go away and all predictions that "the opium of the masses" will disappear have proved premature.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Essel</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47735</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Essel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47735</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot; &quot;&gt;The point of Unitarian Universalism is that it&#039;s not founded on shared beliefs, but on a shared set of moral principles. If you follow those principles, you&#039;re free to believe anything you want. I think an atheist could join a church like that without qualms, and I&#039;m not the only atheist who sometimes shows up; if anything, I think a plurality of the members are atheists&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I can&#039;t speak to the plurality as I haven&#039;t been there in awhile, but at least one local UU church is routinely the host of new age fairs (complete with psychics, healers and crystal magic).  Seems there are quite a few members of new age and buddhist background.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=" "><p>The point of Unitarian Universalism is that it's not founded on shared beliefs, but on a shared set of moral principles. If you follow those principles, you're free to believe anything you want. I think an atheist could join a church like that without qualms, and I'm not the only atheist who sometimes shows up; if anything, I think a plurality of the members are atheists</p></blockquote>
<p>I can't speak to the plurality as I haven't been there in awhile, but at least one local UU church is routinely the host of new age fairs (complete with psychics, healers and crystal magic).  Seems there are quite a few members of new age and buddhist background.</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47724</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47724</guid>
		<description>I very much agree with your assessment on why Fundamentalism or the theist view in religion still have it very strong appeal -- not because we are wired to religion, but because we operate on our natural instinct to survive and run away from uneasiness or things we perceive as threat to us.

We underestimated human psychological instinct and yearning that shaped the religion in the first place -- plus the Fundamentalists do a lot of things which Liberal won&#039;t do -- their &quot;evangelism&quot; and &quot;marketing&quot; to gain a lot of exposure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very much agree with your assessment on why Fundamentalism or the theist view in religion still have it very strong appeal -- not because we are wired to religion, but because we operate on our natural instinct to survive and run away from uneasiness or things we perceive as threat to us.</p>
<p>We underestimated human psychological instinct and yearning that shaped the religion in the first place -- plus the Fundamentalists do a lot of things which Liberal won't do -- their "evangelism" and "marketing" to gain a lot of exposure.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Weaver</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47722</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47722</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Or from unbelievers/liberal churchs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

From the original article:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Spong&#039;s mistake is a common one: he assumes that everyone views the world the same way he does.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Or from unbelievers/liberal churchs.</p></blockquote>
<p>From the original article:</p>
<blockquote><p>Spong's mistake is a common one: he assumes that everyone views the world the same way he does.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47721</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47721</guid>
		<description>Dennet might be right about Children raised in moderate religion households not keeping up the faith.  However I think he fails to take into account people who turn towards moderate churches AFTER growing up.  Either from fundimentlist churches because they have found irreconcible issues with their faith, and moderate beliefs answer these issues.  Or from unbelievers/liberal churchs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennet might be right about Children raised in moderate religion households not keeping up the faith.  However I think he fails to take into account people who turn towards moderate churches AFTER growing up.  Either from fundimentlist churches because they have found irreconcible issues with their faith, and moderate beliefs answer these issues.  Or from unbelievers/liberal churchs.</p>
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		<title>By: SuperHappyJen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47720</link>
		<dc:creator>SuperHappyJen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47720</guid>
		<description>If only we could all be around in the next millenium to witness the fall of religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only we could all be around in the next millenium to witness the fall of religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Greta Christina</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47719</link>
		<dc:creator>Greta Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47719</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Andrew, not having read Dennet (nor any of the &quot;Four Horsemen&quot;) I can&#039;t be sure, but I suspect he doesn&#039;t mean the religion breaks down, but that after Jack and Jill start going to a moderate church, their kids are more likely not to go, and their grandchildren even more likely not to attend services there, but to have departed either for full-blown atheism or to have gone to a more fundamentalist religion.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes. That&#039;s basically what Dennett is saying. Moderate churches may be large, but they have strong a grip on their followers, and that grip loosens with each generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Andrew, not having read Dennet (nor any of the "Four Horsemen") I can't be sure, but I suspect he doesn't mean the religion breaks down, but that after Jack and Jill start going to a moderate church, their kids are more likely not to go, and their grandchildren even more likely not to attend services there, but to have departed either for full-blown atheism or to have gone to a more fundamentalist religion.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes. That's basically what Dennett is saying. Moderate churches may be large, but they have strong a grip on their followers, and that grip loosens with each generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47711</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47711</guid>
		<description>Leum raises an interesting point:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Even as Humanist societies grow in number, the older religions will be established. Unitarian Universal fellowships are already popular among a significant portion of the atheist community seeking rituals, community, and ethics, and a number of Reform and Reconstructivist synagogues and temples perform a similar function for atheist Jews.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ve never been to a Reform Jewish service, but I do occasionally attend a Unitarian Universalist church with my fiancee (who&#039;s an ex-Catholic). Coming from that perspective, I don&#039;t think UUs are in quite the same boat as Spong.

The point of Unitarian Universalism is that it&#039;s not founded on shared beliefs, but on a shared set of moral principles. If you follow those principles, you&#039;re free to believe anything you want. I think an atheist could join a church like that without qualms, and I&#039;m not the only atheist who sometimes shows up; if anything, I think a plurality of the members are atheists.

Spong&#039;s case is different. Watered-down though it is, his theology is still based on a set of specific beliefs, even if his God is a mushy, insubstantial abstraction and his Jesus was just a really swell guy. If you don&#039;t believe what he believes, if you don&#039;t draw inspiration from the same sources as he does, you&#039;re not likely to feel at home there. In this respect, I think Spong&#039;s case is more like those of the mainstream Protestant churches, which have also seen their membership in decline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leum raises an interesting point:</p>
<blockquote><p>Even as Humanist societies grow in number, the older religions will be established. Unitarian Universal fellowships are already popular among a significant portion of the atheist community seeking rituals, community, and ethics, and a number of Reform and Reconstructivist synagogues and temples perform a similar function for atheist Jews.</p></blockquote>
<p>I've never been to a Reform Jewish service, but I do occasionally attend a Unitarian Universalist church with my fiancee (who's an ex-Catholic). Coming from that perspective, I don't think UUs are in quite the same boat as Spong.</p>
<p>The point of Unitarian Universalism is that it's not founded on shared beliefs, but on a shared set of moral principles. If you follow those principles, you're free to believe anything you want. I think an atheist could join a church like that without qualms, and I'm not the only atheist who sometimes shows up; if anything, I think a plurality of the members are atheists.</p>
<p>Spong's case is different. Watered-down though it is, his theology is still based on a set of specific beliefs, even if his God is a mushy, insubstantial abstraction and his Jesus was just a really swell guy. If you don't believe what he believes, if you don't draw inspiration from the same sources as he does, you're not likely to feel at home there. In this respect, I think Spong's case is more like those of the mainstream Protestant churches, which have also seen their membership in decline.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommykey</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/fundamentalism-is-alive-and-well.html#comment-47707</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommykey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1036#comment-47707</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Because from what I can see moderate forms of most every major religion are not only the longest lasting, but currently the largest.&lt;/em&gt;

Andrew, as a former Catholic, I would say that with regard to Catholicism in America, the moderates probably make up the largest bloc.  In a religious denomination that is so large, you can expect that believers will break down into segments from extremely pious Catholics to those who only go to church on Easter Sunday, with the bulk of them being those who generally go to church once a week but don&#039;t necessarily follow church doctrine on abortion, birth control, the death penalty and so forth.

You see the same thing with Lutherans and Episcopalians too.

But you are not going to really see that with evangelical Baptists, because they define themselves as being more literalist in interpreting the Bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Because from what I can see moderate forms of most every major religion are not only the longest lasting, but currently the largest.</em></p>
<p>Andrew, as a former Catholic, I would say that with regard to Catholicism in America, the moderates probably make up the largest bloc.  In a religious denomination that is so large, you can expect that believers will break down into segments from extremely pious Catholics to those who only go to church on Easter Sunday, with the bulk of them being those who generally go to church once a week but don't necessarily follow church doctrine on abortion, birth control, the death penalty and so forth.</p>
<p>You see the same thing with Lutherans and Episcopalians too.</p>
<p>But you are not going to really see that with evangelical Baptists, because they define themselves as being more literalist in interpreting the Bible.</p>
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