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	<title>Comments on: Moving Beyond Awe</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48129</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48129</guid>
		<description>John:

I agree with you. Everything&#039;s read back into the experience, which is why such experiences wind up getting interpreted within the context of the particular religious/cultural milieu of the experiencer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>I agree with you. Everything's read back into the experience, which is why such experiences wind up getting interpreted within the context of the particular religious/cultural milieu of the experiencer.</p>
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		<title>By: Wonderist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48127</link>
		<dc:creator>Wonderist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48127</guid>
		<description>What you are describing here is what I mean by the word &#039;wonder&#039;. Awe is our most primal emotion. But it is formless, in a sense. It gives rise to the opposing emotions of love and fear. Here I use &#039;love&#039; and &#039;fear&#039; as very abstract, indistinct emotions. Love is characterized by attraction, and fear by repulsion. As such, they are in tension and opposition.

To resolve the opposition, we must integrate them. There are two basic ways to integrate them. One is with love being dominant, and one is with fear being dominant.

This gives rise to wonder (mysterium fascinans), and terror (mysterium tremendum).

The core problem, as your article somewhat touches on, is that fear is stronger/more-powerful than love, and so what tends to prevail is terror. It takes an additional oomph to weaken the fear so that wonder can arise. That &#039;oomph&#039; comes from intelligence.

Awe is our experience of the Unknown. We naturally fear the Unknown (terror), but when we investigate, and learn, we can conquer that fear, and we no longer are gripped by terror, but are able to experience wonder.

Wonder is a great word because it has several complementary meanings that all seem to work well with science and atheism. First, wonder is an emotion, as I&#039;ve described. It is the &#039;religious&#039; emotion. And so, it can be shown that wonder is a natural emotion that all humans share, including atheists. This destroys the last remaining &#039;argument&#039; religions use, the Argument from Wonder. In fact, we can show that the wonder we experience from our naturalistic understanding of the universe is *greater* than the wonder you get from Bronze Age mythology.

Second, wonder is a verb, meaning to explore and especially to ask questions. Clearly, this goes hand-in-hand with science, skepticism, naturalism, etc.

Third, wonder is a noun, which indicates the great wonders we can not only imagine, but bring about through our efforts to better the world through understanding. Wonder provides a positive vision of the future, rather than merely negating superstition, proposes positive solutions to real problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you are describing here is what I mean by the word 'wonder'. Awe is our most primal emotion. But it is formless, in a sense. It gives rise to the opposing emotions of love and fear. Here I use 'love' and 'fear' as very abstract, indistinct emotions. Love is characterized by attraction, and fear by repulsion. As such, they are in tension and opposition.</p>
<p>To resolve the opposition, we must integrate them. There are two basic ways to integrate them. One is with love being dominant, and one is with fear being dominant.</p>
<p>This gives rise to wonder (mysterium fascinans), and terror (mysterium tremendum).</p>
<p>The core problem, as your article somewhat touches on, is that fear is stronger/more-powerful than love, and so what tends to prevail is terror. It takes an additional oomph to weaken the fear so that wonder can arise. That 'oomph' comes from intelligence.</p>
<p>Awe is our experience of the Unknown. We naturally fear the Unknown (terror), but when we investigate, and learn, we can conquer that fear, and we no longer are gripped by terror, but are able to experience wonder.</p>
<p>Wonder is a great word because it has several complementary meanings that all seem to work well with science and atheism. First, wonder is an emotion, as I've described. It is the 'religious' emotion. And so, it can be shown that wonder is a natural emotion that all humans share, including atheists. This destroys the last remaining 'argument' religions use, the Argument from Wonder. In fact, we can show that the wonder we experience from our naturalistic understanding of the universe is *greater* than the wonder you get from Bronze Age mythology.</p>
<p>Second, wonder is a verb, meaning to explore and especially to ask questions. Clearly, this goes hand-in-hand with science, skepticism, naturalism, etc.</p>
<p>Third, wonder is a noun, which indicates the great wonders we can not only imagine, but bring about through our efforts to better the world through understanding. Wonder provides a positive vision of the future, rather than merely negating superstition, proposes positive solutions to real problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Greta Christina</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48124</link>
		<dc:creator>Greta Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48124</guid>
		<description>Yes.

I find that as I learn more about the world, I feel &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; struck by awe and wonder, not less. The things we&#039;re learning about how the universe works are so deeply strange, so thoroughly counter to ordinary human experience... I don&#039;t see how you could learn about them and not be gobsmacked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.</p>
<p>I find that as I learn more about the world, I feel <i>more</i> struck by awe and wonder, not less. The things we're learning about how the universe works are so deeply strange, so thoroughly counter to ordinary human experience... I don't see how you could learn about them and not be gobsmacked.</p>
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		<title>By: John Nernoff</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48117</link>
		<dc:creator>John Nernoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48117</guid>
		<description>Theists often appeal to the &quot;religious experience&quot; of &quot;God.&quot;

But what is experienced? Generalized awe, profound feelings, overwhelming this or that. But when this experience is listed as one of the evidences of &quot;God&quot; I usually ask:

What&#039;s the definition of &quot;God&quot;? Most will respond detailing the omnimax properties of the alleged deity: omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, omnipresence, the creator, and so forth. But how are these properties manifest in the religious experience? They cannot be. 

For example, how is omniscience garnered from the item of the experience? How was the knowledge of &quot;God&quot; tested? Obviously that task is impossible.

Similarly with omnipotence. One cannot test the perceived &quot;God&quot; to determine it can do all things.

I conclude reports of religious experience are utterly without merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theists often appeal to the "religious experience" of "God."</p>
<p>But what is experienced? Generalized awe, profound feelings, overwhelming this or that. But when this experience is listed as one of the evidences of "God" I usually ask:</p>
<p>What's the definition of "God"? Most will respond detailing the omnimax properties of the alleged deity: omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, omnipresence, the creator, and so forth. But how are these properties manifest in the religious experience? They cannot be. </p>
<p>For example, how is omniscience garnered from the item of the experience? How was the knowledge of "God" tested? Obviously that task is impossible.</p>
<p>Similarly with omnipotence. One cannot test the perceived "God" to determine it can do all things.</p>
<p>I conclude reports of religious experience are utterly without merit.</p>
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		<title>By: Danikajaye</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48114</link>
		<dc:creator>Danikajaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48114</guid>
		<description>I find if I want have my mind blown I just need to go scuba diving. There is a reef called Roe Reef just off Western Australia and it has all these amazing caves and fish. Parts of the reef rise up overhead like the turrets of ancient towers. There are fish species in the caves that are never caught when fishing and MAN are they freaky-deaky looking things- they look like dinosaurs. Then there are stingrays that get curious and come over to check you out, plus there are a few dolphin pods in the area and some resident sea lions that will stop and stare. 

I find if I contemplate my diving and involve God it diminishes my experience. I find nothing wonderous about thinking that all life and activity I see underwater was created by some mystical hand wave. It seems insulting and I fail to see how anyone can appreciate anything by when thinking in those terms. I marvel at the evidence of millions upon millions of years of evolution of all the fish, plants and animals right before my eyes. I think of all the tiny but crucial chemical reactions that go on daily. That is awe inspiring.

Personally I find God to be a human concept that makes it easier for people to compartmentalise overwhelming ideas or feelings and that relieves them of their need to investigate- and/or think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find if I want have my mind blown I just need to go scuba diving. There is a reef called Roe Reef just off Western Australia and it has all these amazing caves and fish. Parts of the reef rise up overhead like the turrets of ancient towers. There are fish species in the caves that are never caught when fishing and MAN are they freaky-deaky looking things- they look like dinosaurs. Then there are stingrays that get curious and come over to check you out, plus there are a few dolphin pods in the area and some resident sea lions that will stop and stare. </p>
<p>I find if I contemplate my diving and involve God it diminishes my experience. I find nothing wonderous about thinking that all life and activity I see underwater was created by some mystical hand wave. It seems insulting and I fail to see how anyone can appreciate anything by when thinking in those terms. I marvel at the evidence of millions upon millions of years of evolution of all the fish, plants and animals right before my eyes. I think of all the tiny but crucial chemical reactions that go on daily. That is awe inspiring.</p>
<p>Personally I find God to be a human concept that makes it easier for people to compartmentalise overwhelming ideas or feelings and that relieves them of their need to investigate- and/or think.</p>
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		<title>By: jim coufal</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48112</link>
		<dc:creator>jim coufal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48112</guid>
		<description>I have a place I can go to anytime. I close my eyes and see it, feel it, hear it, smell it and relax in awe. My special place has a curving, trilling, step-across brook winding through it. On its banks are blood red cardinal flowers and deep blue wild iris. A green sward of moss and low grass lays on the outside curve of the brook, my resting place. Overhead, aspen sway in the breeze, their leaves trembling with a faint hum. For refreshment, the water is cold and clean to taste, and coldly invigorating. But enough, I have a special place waiting for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a place I can go to anytime. I close my eyes and see it, feel it, hear it, smell it and relax in awe. My special place has a curving, trilling, step-across brook winding through it. On its banks are blood red cardinal flowers and deep blue wild iris. A green sward of moss and low grass lays on the outside curve of the brook, my resting place. Overhead, aspen sway in the breeze, their leaves trembling with a faint hum. For refreshment, the water is cold and clean to taste, and coldly invigorating. But enough, I have a special place waiting for me.</p>
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		<title>By: abusedbypenguins</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48109</link>
		<dc:creator>abusedbypenguins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48109</guid>
		<description>Or go to the Hubble and Spitzer sites to down load incredible photographs of deep space and all of the wonders we have just begun to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or go to the Hubble and Spitzer sites to down load incredible photographs of deep space and all of the wonders we have just begun to see.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Essel</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48108</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Essel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48108</guid>
		<description>Another place to go to feel this sensation is the ocean.  Stand on the shore, or sit on the beach and look out.  Give yourself lots of time to do this.  Your inclination may be to turn and leave.  Resist that and make yourself stay for awhile.  It is one of my favorite things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another place to go to feel this sensation is the ocean.  Stand on the shore, or sit on the beach and look out.  Give yourself lots of time to do this.  Your inclination may be to turn and leave.  Resist that and make yourself stay for awhile.  It is one of my favorite things.</p>
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		<title>By: Entomologista</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48107</link>
		<dc:creator>Entomologista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48107</guid>
		<description>Great post. I especially like the last paragraph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. I especially like the last paragraph.</p>
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		<title>By: TommyP</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48106</link>
		<dc:creator>TommyP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48106</guid>
		<description>Aha, good point jim. And wonderful post Ebon, good to see more people that think science enriches the quality of your life and your sense of awe. Science gets me so excited about the truth of the world that I can hardly hold myself together sometimes. It&#039;s such a thrill, it makes me feel so small, and so damn fortunate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aha, good point jim. And wonderful post Ebon, good to see more people that think science enriches the quality of your life and your sense of awe. Science gets me so excited about the truth of the world that I can hardly hold myself together sometimes. It's such a thrill, it makes me feel so small, and so damn fortunate.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48102</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48102</guid>
		<description>Theists have been clued in to this for a long time. That&#039;s why they built all those huge cathedrals. You walk in and feel like you&#039;re in the belly of a giant whale, then the clergy translates that feeling of &#039;awe&#039; you&#039;re having as being the presence of the Lord.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theists have been clued in to this for a long time. That's why they built all those huge cathedrals. You walk in and feel like you're in the belly of a giant whale, then the clergy translates that feeling of 'awe' you're having as being the presence of the Lord.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommykey</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/moving-beyond-awe.html#comment-48100</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommykey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1061#comment-48100</guid>
		<description>Ebon, did you mean to write &quot;standing in the rain forest of El Yunque&quot;?

My family and I had a nice day trip there this past February during our vacation in Puerto Rico.  Didn&#039;t get to see Arecibo like you did though.  That will have to wait for another trip.

BTW, this post has a lot in common with the Spanish Inquisitor&#039;s most recent post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebon, did you mean to write "standing in the rain forest of El Yunque"?</p>
<p>My family and I had a nice day trip there this past February during our vacation in Puerto Rico.  Didn't get to see Arecibo like you did though.  That will have to wait for another trip.</p>
<p>BTW, this post has a lot in common with the Spanish Inquisitor's most recent post.</p>
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