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	<title>Comments on: Stalin the Divine Savior</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Daylight Atheism &#62; Anti-Atheist Bigotry in the Daily News</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-60439</link>
		<dc:creator>Daylight Atheism &#62; Anti-Atheist Bigotry in the Daily News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2010 01:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] out translations of the Bible and wore &quot;God With Us&quot; on their uniforms, and the Communists who made alliances with Christian clergy and persecuted atheists for not falling in step with their political [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] out translations of the Bible and wore &quot;God With Us&quot; on their uniforms, and the Communists who made alliances with Christian clergy and persecuted atheists for not falling in step with their political [...]</p>
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		<title>By: prase</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48126</link>
		<dc:creator>prase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48126</guid>
		<description>OK, maybe I shall readjust my opinions about Serbia, after all I have no personal experience with the country. Still, I hope that you are too pessimistic. Or you can underestimate the pervasiveness of crackpot theories elsewhere. My experience is that most people tend to believe at least one crank idea, but usually don&#039;t initiate discussion about it, seemingly assuming disagreement. My defense is to avoid any potentially problematic debate. But I expect that if I asked about WTC my experiences would be similar to yours.

I can&#039;t only figure out how to use theory of relativity to destroy the civilisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, maybe I shall readjust my opinions about Serbia, after all I have no personal experience with the country. Still, I hope that you are too pessimistic. Or you can underestimate the pervasiveness of crackpot theories elsewhere. My experience is that most people tend to believe at least one crank idea, but usually don't initiate discussion about it, seemingly assuming disagreement. My defense is to avoid any potentially problematic debate. But I expect that if I asked about WTC my experiences would be similar to yours.</p>
<p>I can't only figure out how to use theory of relativity to destroy the civilisation.</p>
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		<title>By: M.</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48121</link>
		<dc:creator>M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48121</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I would contest that.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, we can argue about it, although I think we agree on the vector, but disagree on its length. 

Conspiracy theories are everywhere, I&#039;ll agree with that; denialism is also practiced everywhere, with varying levels of success. All countries hate their neighbours, and dream about the plots hatched by their powerful enemies. History has left its mark. 

But in my personal experience (so, yes, that is a weak argument, I&#039;ll grant that) the level of pervasiveness is drastically different. For example, out of dozens of my friends and family members not a single one - not &lt;b&gt;one&lt;/b&gt; - believes that WTC towers were brought down by plane impacts. They all have differing views, but &quot;it had to be some kind of explosive inside the buildings&quot;. Other then the professional scientists, at least half of the population thinks that evolution is utter nonsense, and another third seriously doubts it but doesn&#039;t care too much. Massive numbers of people believe that theory of relativity is some kind of plot to undermine civilization (and since Nikola Tesla was a Serb, every insane thing he ever said is seen as a golden truth). Articles in major papers, commentaries on TV, random talk among people - it is all embroidered with conspiracies and crank theories. 

I&#039;ve had the same experience in Russia and Bulgaria; not so much in Romania, true. But I didn&#039;t encounter anything nearly as intense in Czech or Poland or Estonia. 

But, this could just be my perception. I kind of hope it&#039;s not. If we are indeed, as you say, &quot;doing fairly well&quot;, then the rest of the eastern Europe is doing far, far worse then I ever imagined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I would contest that.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, we can argue about it, although I think we agree on the vector, but disagree on its length. </p>
<p>Conspiracy theories are everywhere, I'll agree with that; denialism is also practiced everywhere, with varying levels of success. All countries hate their neighbours, and dream about the plots hatched by their powerful enemies. History has left its mark. </p>
<p>But in my personal experience (so, yes, that is a weak argument, I'll grant that) the level of pervasiveness is drastically different. For example, out of dozens of my friends and family members not a single one - not <b>one</b> - believes that WTC towers were brought down by plane impacts. They all have differing views, but "it had to be some kind of explosive inside the buildings". Other then the professional scientists, at least half of the population thinks that evolution is utter nonsense, and another third seriously doubts it but doesn't care too much. Massive numbers of people believe that theory of relativity is some kind of plot to undermine civilization (and since Nikola Tesla was a Serb, every insane thing he ever said is seen as a golden truth). Articles in major papers, commentaries on TV, random talk among people - it is all embroidered with conspiracies and crank theories. </p>
<p>I've had the same experience in Russia and Bulgaria; not so much in Romania, true. But I didn't encounter anything nearly as intense in Czech or Poland or Estonia. </p>
<p>But, this could just be my perception. I kind of hope it's not. If we are indeed, as you say, "doing fairly well", then the rest of the eastern Europe is doing far, far worse then I ever imagined.</p>
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		<title>By: prase</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48119</link>
		<dc:creator>prase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48119</guid>
		<description>M.,
&lt;blockquote&gt;...especially since no such phenomenon can be seen in non-Orthodox post-communist countries&lt;/blockquote&gt;I would contest that. I have already mentioned Catholic Poland, where (for historically understandable reasons) theories about conspiration between Russia (Orthodox) and Germany (Protestant in parts bordering Poland) are popular - and that&#039;s partly why Kaczyński brothers were elected to their offices. 

Conspiracy theories are not special for post-communist states. This blog has many posts about conspiracy theories held by Americans (from belief that various European Union leaders are incarnation of Antichrist to the belief that the United Nations plot to destroy US independence and freedom). 

And it is not a religious speciality either. My country (Czech Republic) is largely atheistic and still we have a president, who thinks that climatic changes are a false rumour spread by conspired environmentalists, journalists, EU officials and leftists of all sorts in their crusade against liberty. He even writes books about that, and is fairly popular, although fortunately supporters of his ideas are still in minority. One of his advisors is a creationist, but the president himself probably doesn&#039;t hold any religious belief.

If you asked me what country is permeated by conspiracy theories or religious dogmatism, I would certainly not name Serbia. I have registered that Serbian education minister did once propose teaching of Creationism, but generally, viewed from the outside you do fairly well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M.,</p>
<blockquote><p>...especially since no such phenomenon can be seen in non-Orthodox post-communist countries</p></blockquote>
<p>I would contest that. I have already mentioned Catholic Poland, where (for historically understandable reasons) theories about conspiration between Russia (Orthodox) and Germany (Protestant in parts bordering Poland) are popular - and that's partly why Kaczyński brothers were elected to their offices. </p>
<p>Conspiracy theories are not special for post-communist states. This blog has many posts about conspiracy theories held by Americans (from belief that various European Union leaders are incarnation of Antichrist to the belief that the United Nations plot to destroy US independence and freedom). </p>
<p>And it is not a religious speciality either. My country (Czech Republic) is largely atheistic and still we have a president, who thinks that climatic changes are a false rumour spread by conspired environmentalists, journalists, EU officials and leftists of all sorts in their crusade against liberty. He even writes books about that, and is fairly popular, although fortunately supporters of his ideas are still in minority. One of his advisors is a creationist, but the president himself probably doesn't hold any religious belief.</p>
<p>If you asked me what country is permeated by conspiracy theories or religious dogmatism, I would certainly not name Serbia. I have registered that Serbian education minister did once propose teaching of Creationism, but generally, viewed from the outside you do fairly well.</p>
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		<title>By: M.</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48103</link>
		<dc:creator>M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48103</guid>
		<description>@Ebonmuse
&lt;blockquote&gt;Instead, it appears he was open to the idea of forming allegiances with the church, so long as he could trust it to support his political goals.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, that is a good point, but needs to be put forward more directly. I completely missed it in the post. 

@prase
&lt;blockquote&gt;So I think it&#039;s not much precise to speak about post-communist Orthodox countries as a homogeneous group.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Several good points as well. Yes, the Serbs do have reasons to feel particularly persecuted after the last two decades, and yes, that has added to the overall state of mind in Serbia.

However, the phenomena I spoke about appear to be universal, if varying in intensity and direction. Even the furthermost outlier, Romania, still entertains the conspiracy theory motif (although the target is different); and in all aforementioned countries, ex-communists (and their children) are among the most vocal and most reactionary believers. 

I&#039;m not putting this forward as some kind of absolute rule, but it is an interesting thing to note - especially since no such phenomenon can be seen in non-Orthodox post-communist countries. There is something about the combination of Orthodox belief and communism that appears to have left a particularly destructive legacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ebonmuse</p>
<blockquote><p>Instead, it appears he was open to the idea of forming allegiances with the church, so long as he could trust it to support his political goals.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now, that is a good point, but needs to be put forward more directly. I completely missed it in the post. </p>
<p>@prase</p>
<blockquote><p>So I think it's not much precise to speak about post-communist Orthodox countries as a homogeneous group.</p></blockquote>
<p>Several good points as well. Yes, the Serbs do have reasons to feel particularly persecuted after the last two decades, and yes, that has added to the overall state of mind in Serbia.</p>
<p>However, the phenomena I spoke about appear to be universal, if varying in intensity and direction. Even the furthermost outlier, Romania, still entertains the conspiracy theory motif (although the target is different); and in all aforementioned countries, ex-communists (and their children) are among the most vocal and most reactionary believers. </p>
<p>I'm not putting this forward as some kind of absolute rule, but it is an interesting thing to note - especially since no such phenomenon can be seen in non-Orthodox post-communist countries. There is something about the combination of Orthodox belief and communism that appears to have left a particularly destructive legacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Thumpalumpacus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48098</link>
		<dc:creator>Thumpalumpacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48098</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Instead, it appears he was open to the idea of forming allegiances with the church, so long as he could trust it to support his political goals.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, he was a devoted practitioner of &lt;i&gt;realpolitik&lt;/i&gt;; witness his pact with Hitler that opened the way for war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Instead, it appears he was open to the idea of forming allegiances with the church, so long as he could trust it to support his political goals.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, he was a devoted practitioner of <i>realpolitik</i>; witness his pact with Hitler that opened the way for war.</p>
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		<title>By: prase</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48090</link>
		<dc:creator>prase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48090</guid>
		<description>M., isn&#039;t the situation in Serbia a bit specific because of the Kosovo war and trade embargo, and precedent war in Bosnia, where the West almost unanimously supported anybody who was against Serbia? You Serbs have quite a lot of reasons to believe that &quot;everyone is against us&quot; besides the traditional Orthodox attitude (btw. nothing special for Orthodox Christians - look at the Catholic Poles and their national sentiment). In Bulgaria, at least according to &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eurobarometer_poll.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;these statistics&lt;/a&gt;, religion isn&#039;t too pervasive. On the other hand, Romania is probably the most devout Orthodox country in the world while their sentiments are directed against Hungarians &lt;i&gt;and Russians&lt;/i&gt;, not against the West in general. So I think it&#039;s not much precise to speak about post-communist Orthodox countries as a homogeneous group.

And it&#039;s also interesting that, given their distrust to Protestants and evil demonic forces of the West, names of western Protestants like Hovind are popular among Serbian creationists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M., isn't the situation in Serbia a bit specific because of the Kosovo war and trade embargo, and precedent war in Bosnia, where the West almost unanimously supported anybody who was against Serbia? You Serbs have quite a lot of reasons to believe that "everyone is against us" besides the traditional Orthodox attitude (btw. nothing special for Orthodox Christians - look at the Catholic Poles and their national sentiment). In Bulgaria, at least according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eurobarometer_poll.png" rel="nofollow">these statistics</a>, religion isn't too pervasive. On the other hand, Romania is probably the most devout Orthodox country in the world while their sentiments are directed against Hungarians <i>and Russians</i>, not against the West in general. So I think it's not much precise to speak about post-communist Orthodox countries as a homogeneous group.</p>
<p>And it's also interesting that, given their distrust to Protestants and evil demonic forces of the West, names of western Protestants like Hovind are popular among Serbian creationists.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48086</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48086</guid>
		<description>Thank you for that wonderful comment, M. Historians are one thing, but you can&#039;t surpass the personal recollections of someone who actually lived through a regime like this.

Just in case I wasn&#039;t clear enough, I want to clarify that my point in writing this wasn&#039;t to criticize the church for forming allegiances with Stalin. As you say, it&#039;s always possible for a tyrant to find willing collaborators in situations like this, and I don&#039;t think that proves very much. I was more interested in the flow of causality in the opposite direction: the fact that Stalin &lt;i&gt;willingly&lt;/i&gt; formed and sought out alliances with the church. 

If he was a hard-core, bloodthirsty atheist as so many Christian apologists have depicted them, then you&#039;d expect that Stalin would want to stamp out religion, no ifs, ands or buts. Instead, it appears he was open to the idea of forming allegiances with the church, so long as he could trust it to support his political goals. This doesn&#039;t prove anything about his personal beliefs, but it does prove that the relationship of communism to religion was not nearly as black-and-white as it&#039;s usually portrayed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for that wonderful comment, M. Historians are one thing, but you can't surpass the personal recollections of someone who actually lived through a regime like this.</p>
<p>Just in case I wasn't clear enough, I want to clarify that my point in writing this wasn't to criticize the church for forming allegiances with Stalin. As you say, it's always possible for a tyrant to find willing collaborators in situations like this, and I don't think that proves very much. I was more interested in the flow of causality in the opposite direction: the fact that Stalin <i>willingly</i> formed and sought out alliances with the church. </p>
<p>If he was a hard-core, bloodthirsty atheist as so many Christian apologists have depicted them, then you'd expect that Stalin would want to stamp out religion, no ifs, ands or buts. Instead, it appears he was open to the idea of forming allegiances with the church, so long as he could trust it to support his political goals. This doesn't prove anything about his personal beliefs, but it does prove that the relationship of communism to religion was not nearly as black-and-white as it's usually portrayed.</p>
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		<title>By: Thumpalumpacus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48084</link>
		<dc:creator>Thumpalumpacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48084</guid>
		<description>Solzhenitsyn&#039;s first volume of &lt;i&gt;Gulag Archipelago&lt;/i&gt; has an excellent stretch on the relationship of the Leninists and the Orthodox Church.

Another funny thing -- Stalin was a seminary student in his youth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solzhenitsyn's first volume of <i>Gulag Archipelago</i> has an excellent stretch on the relationship of the Leninists and the Orthodox Church.</p>
<p>Another funny thing -- Stalin was a seminary student in his youth.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer A. Burdoo</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48083</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer A. Burdoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48083</guid>
		<description>There are photos of Russian Orthodox priests blessing new tanks (though, interestingly, not the actual units or troops) before they were sent into battle against the Germans.  Stalin was a bit of a pragmatist (though, perhaps, not enough of one) at least during WWII and particularly during the most critical part of the war, when he deliberately turned to religion to help shore up Soviet patriotism and morale.  He didn&#039;t believe in it, but he used it well; and very much as an &quot;opiate of the masses.&quot;  Sort of an unintended lesson to be drawn from Communist writings; if the Imperialists could use it, why couldn&#039;t the Communists?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are photos of Russian Orthodox priests blessing new tanks (though, interestingly, not the actual units or troops) before they were sent into battle against the Germans.  Stalin was a bit of a pragmatist (though, perhaps, not enough of one) at least during WWII and particularly during the most critical part of the war, when he deliberately turned to religion to help shore up Soviet patriotism and morale.  He didn't believe in it, but he used it well; and very much as an "opiate of the masses."  Sort of an unintended lesson to be drawn from Communist writings; if the Imperialists could use it, why couldn't the Communists?</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48082</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48082</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite&gt;Justin - what contradictory attitudes? Stalin was for any state-religion relations that increased his power, and against any that didn&#039;t.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I guess none, then. I just didn&#039;t get why Stalin would repress some religions and uphold others. If I had thought about it from the position of a power-hungry dictator, it would have made sense in a Machiavellian way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite><p>Justin - what contradictory attitudes? Stalin was for any state-religion relations that increased his power, and against any that didn't.</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess none, then. I just didn't get why Stalin would repress some religions and uphold others. If I had thought about it from the position of a power-hungry dictator, it would have made sense in a Machiavellian way.</p>
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		<title>By: Reginald Selkirk</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/06/stalin-the-divine-savior.html#comment-48081</link>
		<dc:creator>Reginald Selkirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1060#comment-48081</guid>
		<description>Bertrand Russell considered Soviet communism to be a religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bertrand Russell considered Soviet communism to be a religion.</p>
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