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	<title>Comments on: The Science Gap</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Arki</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-49507</link>
		<dc:creator>Arki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-49507</guid>
		<description>I am an atheist, but not a scientist.  I personally have reservations about some forms of animal testing, as well as apprehension over the idea of more nuclear plants.  Some of the positions on your list are falsifiable - are humans causing global warming, does evolution by natural selection occur - but some are truly matters of opinion.  What I&#039;m getting at is these are two separate issues: getting the average person to accept the truth about the world, and getting the average person to agree with the scientific community on moral decisions.  I think you&#039;ll have greater success if you focus on the former, especially since there are many people like me who will help you.  On the latter, however, you will find a lot more opposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an atheist, but not a scientist.  I personally have reservations about some forms of animal testing, as well as apprehension over the idea of more nuclear plants.  Some of the positions on your list are falsifiable - are humans causing global warming, does evolution by natural selection occur - but some are truly matters of opinion.  What I'm getting at is these are two separate issues: getting the average person to accept the truth about the world, and getting the average person to agree with the scientific community on moral decisions.  I think you'll have greater success if you focus on the former, especially since there are many people like me who will help you.  On the latter, however, you will find a lot more opposition.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48726</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48726</guid>
		<description>On engineers and evolution: I have just come back from a business trip, travelling with a colleague who is an engineer and a muslim. We got into a late night theological discussion (intense but friendly) which covered a lot of ground, from POE to Morality etc. When we got around to special creation however his position was revealing. He had a high school grounding in three sciences and an undergraduate engineering degree. He accepted that the science behind radio isotope dating, cosmological observation etc indicated a universe 14 Billion years old and an earth 4.5 billion. He accepted that genetic and morpholgical evidence pointed to the long slow evolution of species by natural selection. However he also stated with utmost confiction that despite the evidence he believed the world to be no more than a few thousand years old, created by god and that all humans are literally descended from two specially created individuals called Adam and Eve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On engineers and evolution: I have just come back from a business trip, travelling with a colleague who is an engineer and a muslim. We got into a late night theological discussion (intense but friendly) which covered a lot of ground, from POE to Morality etc. When we got around to special creation however his position was revealing. He had a high school grounding in three sciences and an undergraduate engineering degree. He accepted that the science behind radio isotope dating, cosmological observation etc indicated a universe 14 Billion years old and an earth 4.5 billion. He accepted that genetic and morpholgical evidence pointed to the long slow evolution of species by natural selection. However he also stated with utmost confiction that despite the evidence he believed the world to be no more than a few thousand years old, created by god and that all humans are literally descended from two specially created individuals called Adam and Eve.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Skinner</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48668</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Skinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 05:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48668</guid>
		<description>&quot;The idea isn&#039;t to completely replace coal.&quot;

I&#039;d hope to. Sure we have 200 years o deposits left, but I prefer something that isn&#039; so polluting and has the potential for underground fires.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The idea isn't to completely replace coal."</p>
<p>I'd hope to. Sure we have 200 years o deposits left, but I prefer something that isn' so polluting and has the potential for underground fires.</p>
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		<title>By: Modusoperandi</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48646</link>
		<dc:creator>Modusoperandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 23:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48646</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Samuel Skinner&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;&quot;Note that the solutions you propose don&#039;t affect electricity usage- they are gasoline only.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
Ooo. Well, la tee dah, Mister Samuel &quot;I don&#039;t live in my car&quot; Skinner. I bet you don&#039;t have a mullet, either. &lt;i&gt;*Pbbt!*&lt;/i&gt; Elitist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Samuel Skinner</b> <i>"Note that the solutions you propose don't affect electricity usage- they are gasoline only."</i><br />
Ooo. Well, la tee dah, Mister Samuel "I don't live in my car" Skinner. I bet you don't have a mullet, either. <i>*Pbbt!*</i> Elitist.</p>
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		<title>By: Joffan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48634</link>
		<dc:creator>Joffan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48634</guid>
		<description>Really France uses &lt;i&gt;French&lt;/i&gt; nuclear reactors, but the origins of their main design (light-water reactors) is American. Canadian reactors use heavy water (D20) and natural uranium.

Solar is an attractive match for the typical daytime load increase of about 50% above the overnight constant load. My hunch is that most of that increased daytime load is currently handled by gas and hydro, since those are easier to turn up and down, rather than coal. I know France (back to that!) uses their nuclear power to load-follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really France uses <i>French</i> nuclear reactors, but the origins of their main design (light-water reactors) is American. Canadian reactors use heavy water (D20) and natural uranium.</p>
<p>Solar is an attractive match for the typical daytime load increase of about 50% above the overnight constant load. My hunch is that most of that increased daytime load is currently handled by gas and hydro, since those are easier to turn up and down, rather than coal. I know France (back to that!) uses their nuclear power to load-follow.</p>
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		<title>By: 2-D Man</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48633</link>
		<dc:creator>2-D Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48633</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The US has forgotten how to build [nuclear reactors].&quot;
This looks like a job for France!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
France uses Canadian nuclear reactors.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Solar is less effective in winter and doesn&#039;t work at all at night.... You need something else to pick up the slack.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Exactly, &lt;i&gt;pick up the slack&lt;/i&gt;! The idea isn&#039;t to completely replace coal. The idea is to reduce consumption of it, make it a secondary power source. While solar cells suck, one of the biggest uses of electricity is heating water (and homes). If we improve capture of solar energy and convert it into heating, there really aren&#039;t inefficiencies anymore; it&#039;s a 1:1 reduction in our electricity* consumption, which primarily comes from burning coal. Combine this with a concentrated effort to reduce energy use, and the effects from coal will be drastically cut back.

*Natural gas is used for this purpose too, but giving up natural gas for solar is still a good trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>"The US has forgotten how to build [nuclear reactors]."<br />
This looks like a job for France!</p></blockquote>
<p>France uses Canadian nuclear reactors.</p>
<blockquote><p>Solar is less effective in winter and doesn't work at all at night.... You need something else to pick up the slack.</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly, <i>pick up the slack</i>! The idea isn't to completely replace coal. The idea is to reduce consumption of it, make it a secondary power source. While solar cells suck, one of the biggest uses of electricity is heating water (and homes). If we improve capture of solar energy and convert it into heating, there really aren't inefficiencies anymore; it's a 1:1 reduction in our electricity* consumption, which primarily comes from burning coal. Combine this with a concentrated effort to reduce energy use, and the effects from coal will be drastically cut back.</p>
<p>*Natural gas is used for this purpose too, but giving up natural gas for solar is still a good trade.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48625</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48625</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Actually, why should we be forced to wear seatbelts? I don&#039;t think this is a very good analogy -- If I am unable to wear a seat-belt, am I safer in a crash if the other driver is wearing one?&lt;/blockquote&gt; Actually you are. In a crash the seatbelt will keep them in one place rather than throwing them around the vehicle where they will increase the likelyhood that you are hurt. In particular a backseat passenger with out a seatbelt can be thrown into the back of your head, killing both of you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Actually, why should we be forced to wear seatbelts? I don't think this is a very good analogy -- If I am unable to wear a seat-belt, am I safer in a crash if the other driver is wearing one?</p></blockquote>
<p> Actually you are. In a crash the seatbelt will keep them in one place rather than throwing them around the vehicle where they will increase the likelyhood that you are hurt. In particular a backseat passenger with out a seatbelt can be thrown into the back of your head, killing both of you.</p>
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		<title>By: Joffan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48621</link>
		<dc:creator>Joffan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48621</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What the... smokers are more likely to work at a nuclear plant?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Heh, Samuel, I dunno, it&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint_abr/331/7508/77.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this paragraph on the third page (p78)&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Indirect analyses of the possible confounding effect of smoking yielded excess relative risks that ranged between 0.59 per Sv ( −0.29 to 1.70) for all cancers excluding leukaemia and lung and pleural cancer, and 0.91 per Sv ( −0.11 to 2.21) for smoking related cancers&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Because the confidence intervals include zero, the effect is not statistically significant. Maybe it&#039;s those darned Canucks, smoking like crazy to keep the cold out. The study period reaches back into the fifties so anything is possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What the... smokers are more likely to work at a nuclear plant?</p></blockquote>
<p>Heh, Samuel, I dunno, it's <a href="http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint_abr/331/7508/77.pdf" rel="nofollow">this paragraph on the third page (p78)</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Indirect analyses of the possible confounding effect of smoking yielded excess relative risks that ranged between 0.59 per Sv ( −0.29 to 1.70) for all cancers excluding leukaemia and lung and pleural cancer, and 0.91 per Sv ( −0.11 to 2.21) for smoking related cancers</p></blockquote>
<p>Because the confidence intervals include zero, the effect is not statistically significant. Maybe it's those darned Canucks, smoking like crazy to keep the cold out. The study period reaches back into the fifties so anything is possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Skinner</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48620</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Skinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48620</guid>
		<description>&quot;I&#039;m not suggesting that someone who hasn&#039;t earned a bachelor&#039;s degree is incapable of understanding basic science. But when 70% of a population&#039;s highest educational level is a high school diploma (or equivalent), no one should be surprised when only 32% of non-scientists polled believe in evolution.&quot;

I think that is more a testament to shitty high school education.

&quot;The US has forgotten how to build them.&quot;

This looks like a job for France!

&quot;Of course, we could always just use less, and use it more efficiently (de-suburbanization, better public transit, etc), which would mean less baseline and less coal/gas/nuke/whatever. Naw. That&#039;s ridiculous. UnAmerican, frankly.&quot;

We actually are reducing energy usage per person. Note that the solutions you propose don&#039;t affect electricity usage- they are gasoline only.

&quot;Are there any engineers out there to explain how an intelligent designer would solve this problem?&quot;

Just tell me what you are willing to give up and I can tell you what you can get. NIMBY? Clean Air? Cheapness?

&quot;And that&#039;s if there&#039;s any effect at all: once smoking is corrected for, the effects are no longer statistically significant.&quot;

What the... smokers are more likely to work at a nuclear plant?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I'm not suggesting that someone who hasn't earned a bachelor's degree is incapable of understanding basic science. But when 70% of a population's highest educational level is a high school diploma (or equivalent), no one should be surprised when only 32% of non-scientists polled believe in evolution."</p>
<p>I think that is more a testament to shitty high school education.</p>
<p>"The US has forgotten how to build them."</p>
<p>This looks like a job for France!</p>
<p>"Of course, we could always just use less, and use it more efficiently (de-suburbanization, better public transit, etc), which would mean less baseline and less coal/gas/nuke/whatever. Naw. That's ridiculous. UnAmerican, frankly."</p>
<p>We actually are reducing energy usage per person. Note that the solutions you propose don't affect electricity usage- they are gasoline only.</p>
<p>"Are there any engineers out there to explain how an intelligent designer would solve this problem?"</p>
<p>Just tell me what you are willing to give up and I can tell you what you can get. NIMBY? Clean Air? Cheapness?</p>
<p>"And that's if there's any effect at all: once smoking is corrected for, the effects are no longer statistically significant."</p>
<p>What the... smokers are more likely to work at a nuclear plant?</p>
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		<title>By: Joffan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48616</link>
		<dc:creator>Joffan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48616</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, the &quot;twice as likely to die of cancer&quot; line is another example of media laziness, or perhaps innumeracy. Even taking the conclusions that Mark Lemstra uses, the majority of NPP workers would face a less than 1% increase in the chance of getting cancer over their normal chances (which apply to all of us) of about 42%, once you multiply out the &quot;excess relative risk&quot; by the rather low dose. And that&#039;s if there&#039;s any effect at all: once smoking is corrected for, the effects are no longer statistically significant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, the "twice as likely to die of cancer" line is another example of media laziness, or perhaps innumeracy. Even taking the conclusions that Mark Lemstra uses, the majority of NPP workers would face a less than 1% increase in the chance of getting cancer over their normal chances (which apply to all of us) of about 42%, once you multiply out the "excess relative risk" by the rather low dose. And that's if there's any effect at all: once smoking is corrected for, the effects are no longer statistically significant.</p>
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		<title>By: Scotlyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48613</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48613</guid>
		<description>Ebonmuse &lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Why don&#039;t you think solar, wind and tide power are viable alternatives?&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Modusoperandi &lt;blockquote&gt;As complementary power, yes, but they&#039;re too unreliable for baseline (the power that you need all the time). Solar is less effective in winter and doesn&#039;t work at all at night, wind power varies with both weather and seasons, alternate fuels tend to grow best in the same places that your food does, tidal doesn&#039;t work in Kansas, etc. You need something else to pick up the slack, hydro-electric is pretty much played out (most of the big rivers already got &#039;em) and hydro-thermal only works if you&#039;re willing to put up with Bjork.
Nuclear, while its waste is very bad, has compact waste vs coal&#039;s &quot;everywhere&quot; waste. Good luck with nukes, though. The US has forgotten how to build them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Are there any engineers out there to explain how an intelligent designer would solve this problem?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebonmuse<br />
<blockquote>"Why don't you think solar, wind and tide power are viable alternatives?"</p></blockquote>
<p>Modusoperandi<br />
<blockquote>As complementary power, yes, but they're too unreliable for baseline (the power that you need all the time). Solar is less effective in winter and doesn't work at all at night, wind power varies with both weather and seasons, alternate fuels tend to grow best in the same places that your food does, tidal doesn't work in Kansas, etc. You need something else to pick up the slack, hydro-electric is pretty much played out (most of the big rivers already got 'em) and hydro-thermal only works if you're willing to put up with Bjork.<br />
Nuclear, while its waste is very bad, has compact waste vs coal's "everywhere" waste. Good luck with nukes, though. The US has forgotten how to build them.</p></blockquote>
<p>Are there any engineers out there to explain how an intelligent designer would solve this problem?</p>
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		<title>By: Joffan</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/07/the-science-gap.html#comment-48611</link>
		<dc:creator>Joffan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1079#comment-48611</guid>
		<description>Interesting - I always wondered whether nuclear power would come up on this site and what the response would be. It&#039;s especially relevant because of the reference to media sensationalism and laziness. The media love to print doom-and-gloom stories aboutanything with &quot;nuclear&quot; or &quot;radiation&quot; in the title leading to the impression that there is something magically deadly about anything with these words in. Exposure to spent fuel, for example, is deadly when it is fresh out the reactor, but becomes much less so rapidly; but you will often find only the most sensational description of its lethality, even when really discussing (say) the transport of twenty-year-old fuel in virtually unbreakable casks.

I found a publicly available article on the 15-country study &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint_abr/331/7508/77.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here (pdf)&lt;/a&gt;. One rather unprofessional aspect is the willingness to draw conclusions based on non-significant trends, so I will return the favor by noting that the non-significant trend for US nuclear power-plant workers is towards less cancers, not more. The Canadian contribution is what takes the overall result into actual significance overall, which suggests to me that something different is happening either in the processes or the definitions in that country.

The typical result of studies on workers exposed to low-dose radiation is that there is no effect. A &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/low-dose-NSWS-shipyard.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;study of Navy shipyard workers (pdf)&lt;/a&gt; who were allocated to work on nuclear or non-nuclear boats even showed a low-dose benefit, with strong statistical significance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting - I always wondered whether nuclear power would come up on this site and what the response would be. It's especially relevant because of the reference to media sensationalism and laziness. The media love to print doom-and-gloom stories aboutanything with "nuclear" or "radiation" in the title leading to the impression that there is something magically deadly about anything with these words in. Exposure to spent fuel, for example, is deadly when it is fresh out the reactor, but becomes much less so rapidly; but you will often find only the most sensational description of its lethality, even when really discussing (say) the transport of twenty-year-old fuel in virtually unbreakable casks.</p>
<p>I found a publicly available article on the 15-country study <a href="http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint_abr/331/7508/77.pdf" rel="nofollow"> here (pdf)</a>. One rather unprofessional aspect is the willingness to draw conclusions based on non-significant trends, so I will return the favor by noting that the non-significant trend for US nuclear power-plant workers is towards less cancers, not more. The Canadian contribution is what takes the overall result into actual significance overall, which suggests to me that something different is happening either in the processes or the definitions in that country.</p>
<p>The typical result of studies on workers exposed to low-dose radiation is that there is no effect. A <a href="http://www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/low-dose-NSWS-shipyard.pdf" rel="nofollow">study of Navy shipyard workers (pdf)</a> who were allocated to work on nuclear or non-nuclear boats even showed a low-dose benefit, with strong statistical significance.</p>
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