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	<title>Comments on: Cargo Cult Science</title>
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	<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html</link>
	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: anti_supernaturalist</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-51092</link>
		<dc:creator>anti_supernaturalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-51092</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt; what is prayer?&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;i&gt; it’s not about what you want -- it&#039;s about what&#039;s wanted from you&lt;/i&gt;

God&#039;s lack of a direct response to prayer is not a response of &#039;no.&#039; It&#039;s simply a non-response. To the priest-pastor-rabbi-imam it is important that “God” never respond. They&#039;d be out of a job.  

To hear God speaking to you directly makes you a likely hysteric or schizophrenic, not a likely saint. Why is it Jesus rather than Buddha who appears as an auditory hallucination to Saul/Paul of Tarsus? Why doesn&#039;t Teresa of Avila go into sexual ecstasy over Krishna like Radha and the other voluptuous Gopis of Vrindavan?

Jesus admonished his followers against prayer as asking-for-stuff -- &quot;consider the lilies of the field&quot; -- or prayer as public performance -- &quot;they have their reward.&quot; So, even the fiction writers of the so-called gospels knew how to hedge their bets . . . How could a non-existent being respond? 

By 100 BCE philosophical skepticism had made naive prayer -- let’s-make-a-deal, or a god&#039;s direct public response -- fire from heaven or thunder over the left shoulder -- literally beyond belief.

Prayer finally amounts to a purported alignment of a person&#039;s intentions with &quot;the will of God.&quot; Or with the will of Yahweh, Allah, Ahura Mazda. Pick your favorite from the big-4 near eastern monster-theisms. They&#039;re interchangeable.

Prayer is one fat red herring. The word &#039;prayer&#039; simply gets redefined from let&#039;s-make-a-deal until the action it points to is rendered into attitude adjustment. Now the religious &quot;authorities&quot; have you. All that matters is your attitude -- are you prepared to submit to them as some god&#039;s proxy?

So you have a problem adapting to our authority? -- well it&#039;s your problem. Or better yet, intones father-pastor-rabbi-imam, you are your problem. You&#039;re out of touch with their realities -- which we know to be fictional lands of religious fantasy.

The so-called great theistic religions and Freudian psychiatry are one in creating fictitious illnesses (sin/neurosis) for which each offers bogus cures at premium prices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b> what is prayer?</b><br />
<i> it’s not about what you want -- it's about what's wanted from you</i></p>
<p>God's lack of a direct response to prayer is not a response of 'no.' It's simply a non-response. To the priest-pastor-rabbi-imam it is important that “God” never respond. They'd be out of a job.  </p>
<p>To hear God speaking to you directly makes you a likely hysteric or schizophrenic, not a likely saint. Why is it Jesus rather than Buddha who appears as an auditory hallucination to Saul/Paul of Tarsus? Why doesn't Teresa of Avila go into sexual ecstasy over Krishna like Radha and the other voluptuous Gopis of Vrindavan?</p>
<p>Jesus admonished his followers against prayer as asking-for-stuff -- "consider the lilies of the field" -- or prayer as public performance -- "they have their reward." So, even the fiction writers of the so-called gospels knew how to hedge their bets . . . How could a non-existent being respond? </p>
<p>By 100 BCE philosophical skepticism had made naive prayer -- let’s-make-a-deal, or a god's direct public response -- fire from heaven or thunder over the left shoulder -- literally beyond belief.</p>
<p>Prayer finally amounts to a purported alignment of a person's intentions with "the will of God." Or with the will of Yahweh, Allah, Ahura Mazda. Pick your favorite from the big-4 near eastern monster-theisms. They're interchangeable.</p>
<p>Prayer is one fat red herring. The word 'prayer' simply gets redefined from let's-make-a-deal until the action it points to is rendered into attitude adjustment. Now the religious "authorities" have you. All that matters is your attitude -- are you prepared to submit to them as some god's proxy?</p>
<p>So you have a problem adapting to our authority? -- well it's your problem. Or better yet, intones father-pastor-rabbi-imam, you are your problem. You're out of touch with their realities -- which we know to be fictional lands of religious fantasy.</p>
<p>The so-called great theistic religions and Freudian psychiatry are one in creating fictitious illnesses (sin/neurosis) for which each offers bogus cures at premium prices.</p>
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		<title>By: Modusoperandi</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-51077</link>
		<dc:creator>Modusoperandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 04:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-51077</guid>
		<description>Ashling: Only if they make their Saving Throw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ashling: Only if they make their Saving Throw.</p>
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		<title>By: ashling</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-51075</link>
		<dc:creator>ashling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 02:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-51075</guid>
		<description>D&amp;D references? So they were right, D&amp;D does lead to godlessness ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D&amp;D references? So they were right, D&amp;D does lead to godlessness ;)</p>
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		<title>By: D</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-51022</link>
		<dc:creator>D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-51022</guid>
		<description>What.  The.  Eff.

This &lt;i&gt;has&lt;/i&gt; to be a Poe.  It simply &lt;i&gt;must&lt;/i&gt; be, or humanity is doomed.  True dichotomy, there.  What on Earth makes them think that these figures are at all justified?  Your bit on the aping of science is spot-the-Hell-&lt;i&gt;on&lt;/i&gt;, though:  I once said of Creationists that they are to science what a bunch of children on a field trip are to auto manufacturing.  You see, the children can dress up in outfits, they can push buttons and pull levers and shout orders at each other, take coffee breaks and punch clocks all day long... but if no automobiles come out, &lt;i&gt;then they weren&#039;t manufacturing automobiles&lt;/i&gt;.  If peer-reviewed research is not generated, if testable claims are not being evaluated, if controlled experiments are not being carried out, then no science is being done, The End.

A&#039;Llyn&#039;s bit on D&amp;D reminds me of the Chariots of Iron &quot;Priests &amp; Prophets.&quot;  They did a great two-part bit on the story of Exodus, with players taking the role of Moses &amp; Aaron, and the DM was God.  My favorite geeky bit was when they talked about &lt;a href=&quot;http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/acts/5.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Peter&#039;s commune&lt;/a&gt; in the book of Acts, they were all like, &quot;Yeah, Ananias comes to Peter and lies about how much money he&#039;s got, so Peter speaks some hokum and Ananias just &lt;i&gt;dies&lt;/i&gt;.  That&#039;s the first documented use of Power Word:  Kill by a 17th-level cleric - &quot;  &quot;Wait, I thought that was a ninth-level wizard spell?&quot;  &quot;It is, but he&#039;s a cleric so he needs to be 17th level to use it.  Anyway, Ananias&#039; wife tries to pull the same trick later in the day, so Peter uses Power Word:  Kill on her, too.&quot;  &quot;A ninth-level wizard spell twice in one day by a cleric?  So he must be, like, &lt;i&gt;at least&lt;/i&gt; twenty-first level - or he took an extended rest in between.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What.  The.  Eff.</p>
<p>This <i>has</i> to be a Poe.  It simply <i>must</i> be, or humanity is doomed.  True dichotomy, there.  What on Earth makes them think that these figures are at all justified?  Your bit on the aping of science is spot-the-Hell-<i>on</i>, though:  I once said of Creationists that they are to science what a bunch of children on a field trip are to auto manufacturing.  You see, the children can dress up in outfits, they can push buttons and pull levers and shout orders at each other, take coffee breaks and punch clocks all day long... but if no automobiles come out, <i>then they weren't manufacturing automobiles</i>.  If peer-reviewed research is not generated, if testable claims are not being evaluated, if controlled experiments are not being carried out, then no science is being done, The End.</p>
<p>A'Llyn's bit on D&amp;D reminds me of the Chariots of Iron "Priests &amp; Prophets."  They did a great two-part bit on the story of Exodus, with players taking the role of Moses &amp; Aaron, and the DM was God.  My favorite geeky bit was when they talked about <a href="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/acts/5.html" rel="nofollow">Peter's commune</a> in the book of Acts, they were all like, "Yeah, Ananias comes to Peter and lies about how much money he's got, so Peter speaks some hokum and Ananias just <i>dies</i>.  That's the first documented use of Power Word:  Kill by a 17th-level cleric - "  "Wait, I thought that was a ninth-level wizard spell?"  "It is, but he's a cleric so he needs to be 17th level to use it.  Anyway, Ananias' wife tries to pull the same trick later in the day, so Peter uses Power Word:  Kill on her, too."  "A ninth-level wizard spell twice in one day by a cleric?  So he must be, like, <i>at least</i> twenty-first level - or he took an extended rest in between."</p>
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		<title>By: Modusoperandi</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-51013</link>
		<dc:creator>Modusoperandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-51013</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Yahzi&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;&quot;Back in the pre-bellum South, the invisibility of slavery was so potent that occasionally white women would undress in front of black male servants.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
So, what you&#039;re saying is that being a slave has its perks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Yahzi</b> <i>"Back in the pre-bellum South, the invisibility of slavery was so potent that occasionally white women would undress in front of black male servants."</i><br />
So, what you're saying is that being a slave has its perks?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex, FCD</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-51009</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex, FCD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-51009</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;ve been trying to find an article about atheist thoughts on &quot;chakras&quot;, &quot;energy&quot; and other related &quot;spiritual woo&quot; for awhile now. I hear about it so much, I would love to hear other responses (likely more eloquent than mine).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/popular-delusions-xii.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;For every one that asketh receiveth; and she that seeketh findeth&lt;/a&gt;.  Ebon&#039;s &#039;Popular Delusions&#039; series is excellent on that topic, and also includes bits on astrology and crystal healing amongst others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I've been trying to find an article about atheist thoughts on "chakras", "energy" and other related "spiritual woo" for awhile now. I hear about it so much, I would love to hear other responses (likely more eloquent than mine).</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/01/popular-delusions-xii.html" rel="nofollow">For every one that asketh receiveth; and she that seeketh findeth</a>.  Ebon's 'Popular Delusions' series is excellent on that topic, and also includes bits on astrology and crystal healing amongst others.</p>
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		<title>By: Staceyjw</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-50999</link>
		<dc:creator>Staceyjw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-50999</guid>
		<description>In San Diego I am surrounded by wealthy white woo lovers and Mexican catholics- neither is as sensible as a cargo cult. 

I&#039;ve been trying to find an article about atheist thoughts on &quot;chakras&quot;, &quot;energy&quot; and other related &quot;spiritual woo&quot; for awhile now. I hear about it so much, I would love to hear other responses (likely more eloquent than mine). 
I am told countless times, by actual friends: &quot;saying your an atheist is so negative&quot;, &quot;you need spirituality&quot; and &quot;you&#039;re closing your mind to so much (by denying god and demanding proof of supernatural)&quot;. Ugh!

The worst part is that woo believers (and creationists) jump to use science when it suits them, deny it when it disproves them, Some claim energy and chakras are real and are scientifically proven.Most people I know heavily into woo have done lots of psychedelics and are convinced what they experienced is real.

Please point me to any related posts!

THANKS
Staceyjw</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In San Diego I am surrounded by wealthy white woo lovers and Mexican catholics- neither is as sensible as a cargo cult. </p>
<p>I've been trying to find an article about atheist thoughts on "chakras", "energy" and other related "spiritual woo" for awhile now. I hear about it so much, I would love to hear other responses (likely more eloquent than mine).<br />
I am told countless times, by actual friends: "saying your an atheist is so negative", "you need spirituality" and "you're closing your mind to so much (by denying god and demanding proof of supernatural)". Ugh!</p>
<p>The worst part is that woo believers (and creationists) jump to use science when it suits them, deny it when it disproves them, Some claim energy and chakras are real and are scientifically proven.Most people I know heavily into woo have done lots of psychedelics and are convinced what they experienced is real.</p>
<p>Please point me to any related posts!</p>
<p>THANKS<br />
Staceyjw</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-50998</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-50998</guid>
		<description>@ A&#039;Llyn - I agree with Bruce. Your idea is pure gold (or gp, as it were). I can just imagine the potential extensions, at least for D&amp;D: converting others to your belief system adds a +1 to your next roll, rolling a natural failure causes the deity to send a horrific plague, and if you can beat the DC, you can have your god complete dungeon puzzles or kill boss monsters for you. Playing a cleric would never be the same again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ A'Llyn - I agree with Bruce. Your idea is pure gold (or gp, as it were). I can just imagine the potential extensions, at least for D&amp;D: converting others to your belief system adds a +1 to your next roll, rolling a natural failure causes the deity to send a horrific plague, and if you can beat the DC, you can have your god complete dungeon puzzles or kill boss monsters for you. Playing a cleric would never be the same again!</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-50997</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-50997</guid>
		<description>One of my friends told me about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.noetic.org/research.cfm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Noetic Science&quot;&lt;/a&gt;. He thought it looked promising. I was skeptical. I&#039;ve looked a fair amount through the site and I haven&#039;t found anything but &quot;objectives&quot; and &quot;aims,&quot; utterly ambiguous or patently obvious &quot;results,&quot; potential Placebo effects and just absolutely trashy &quot;science.&quot;

On the other hand, I just checked out that Integral site. Apparently they have good web designers, and they even included a pic of an actual integral from calculus! What more could you want in order to feel motivated towards this stuff!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my friends told me about <a href="http://www.noetic.org/research.cfm" rel="nofollow">"Noetic Science"</a>. He thought it looked promising. I was skeptical. I've looked a fair amount through the site and I haven't found anything but "objectives" and "aims," utterly ambiguous or patently obvious "results," potential Placebo effects and just absolutely trashy "science."</p>
<p>On the other hand, I just checked out that Integral site. Apparently they have good web designers, and they even included a pic of an actual integral from calculus! What more could you want in order to feel motivated towards this stuff!</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-50996</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-50996</guid>
		<description>A&#039;Llyn, you should codify your RPG idea, incorporating this feel-good mumbo jumbo into a paper and dice game with rules all bound up pretty-like in a book, then sell it to the credulous. The people who produced the above documents would eat it up. They sound geeky enough and maybe you could make a small fortune. Best of all, the money you make is that much less money your marks will have to spend on truly harmful woo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A'Llyn, you should codify your RPG idea, incorporating this feel-good mumbo jumbo into a paper and dice game with rules all bound up pretty-like in a book, then sell it to the credulous. The people who produced the above documents would eat it up. They sound geeky enough and maybe you could make a small fortune. Best of all, the money you make is that much less money your marks will have to spend on truly harmful woo.</p>
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		<title>By: A'Llyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-50994</link>
		<dc:creator>A'Llyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-50994</guid>
		<description>What this reminds me of, with all the charts and percentages, is a roleplaying game, like Dungeons and Dragons. You pray, roll the die to see if you succeed, and the correct gestures add a 20% positive modifier. That&#039;s a +4, you know, which is nothing to sneeze at!

The only thing missing is a chart explaining the DC of each type of thing you want to have happen, so you know how high you have to roll on your d20 to get someone to drop dead, or achieve Final Liberation.

Also, I would want to see the write-up on Final Liberation. I bet a sneaky player could use it to get rid of an opponent (because I&#039;m sure Finally Liberated people don&#039;t hang around bothering with adventurers), while still maintaining a Lawful Good alignment. 

Heh. I am a geek.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What this reminds me of, with all the charts and percentages, is a roleplaying game, like Dungeons and Dragons. You pray, roll the die to see if you succeed, and the correct gestures add a 20% positive modifier. That's a +4, you know, which is nothing to sneeze at!</p>
<p>The only thing missing is a chart explaining the DC of each type of thing you want to have happen, so you know how high you have to roll on your d20 to get someone to drop dead, or achieve Final Liberation.</p>
<p>Also, I would want to see the write-up on Final Liberation. I bet a sneaky player could use it to get rid of an opponent (because I'm sure Finally Liberated people don't hang around bothering with adventurers), while still maintaining a Lawful Good alignment. </p>
<p>Heh. I am a geek.</p>
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		<title>By: Nurse Ingrid</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/10/cargo-cult-science.html#comment-50992</link>
		<dc:creator>Nurse Ingrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1165#comment-50992</guid>
		<description>I love this concept of cargo cult science. It reminds me of the ads for cosmetics in which someone in a lab coat talks about how this product contains alpha-hydroxy-whatever and is &quot;clinically proven.&quot;

How deeply strange, the degree to which our society has fetishized all the trappings of science at the same time that we have so thoroughly abandoned its actual principles. This never struck me in quite this way until I read this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this concept of cargo cult science. It reminds me of the ads for cosmetics in which someone in a lab coat talks about how this product contains alpha-hydroxy-whatever and is "clinically proven."</p>
<p>How deeply strange, the degree to which our society has fetishized all the trappings of science at the same time that we have so thoroughly abandoned its actual principles. This never struck me in quite this way until I read this post.</p>
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