Comment #31 by: Gary

Is there a website or book somewhere that cites ancient literature to show that these sun gods were believed to have traits matching those of the biblical Jesus?

Check out Unspoken Bible. He has information on Biblical Astrology and sun gods. No idea if it is accurate or not.

One of his links has a number of Biblical Astrology References.

Theists do not assert that God exists with no prior thought as some state. It is the intellect and logic that leads one to say that existence of its own accord does not make sense, and then to consider the possibility of an intelligent designer.

An "intelligent designer"? Sure, that's possible. Now would that be your deity, or an aboriginal Australian nature spirit, or maybe one of the classical Greek gods, or some combination of untold thousand others? All of these ideas, and an infinite number of others, fit the evidence equally well -- how would you figure out what really happened? Maybe our universe is a project from the equivalent of a junior high science class in another dimension. Maybe it was created by our own distant descendants, billions of years in the future, who will travel back in time to start it all, in order eventually to give rise to themselves. Without evidence, there is no way to prove or disprove even a far-fetched hypothesis -- no way even to know which ones might be more likely than the rest (although knowing a thing or two about the state of knowledge of nature by people of the bronze age, I'm not putting my money on any of their myths). For now, I have no plans to go to church to pray to any of those explanations, until the rest have been ruled out.

We can be quite sure that sun isn't going to get stuck in the middle of the night, and leave us in perpetual darkness, if we don't say the right prayers. You and I therefore know perfectly well that "the sun will come up tomorrow...without God."

This is a demonstration of faith on your part... faith in science of some sort. But without God the sun would not be here in the first place, nor would it come up tomorrow.

First of all, do you agree that the movement of the sun in the sky is an illusion caused by the rotation of the earth, that the earth will continue rotating as long as it exists, and therefore expecting the "sunrise" is not a matter of faith? Second, I see someone moved the goalposts while I wasn't looking. First the atheist had to expect the sunrise "on faith", and now it's the existence of the sun. Arch, there is a sun, believe it or disbelieve it. Faith not required.

Before you accuse me of God of the gaps, I would like to hear many explanations of time and eternity apart from God. Because though many here do not want to admit it, a theist is not automatically a "God of the gaps" philosopher by any stretch, but one who has assented to faith through the intellect and the will.

I do accuse you of appealing to the "God of the Gaps" fallacy. You say there is something we don't understand (gap), therefore, God (or rather, God is a plausible explanation). And I won't explain time and eternity first. In fact, I openly proclaim that I don't understand them -- I offer no explanation whatsoever.

This does not mean I have to accept that YHWH of the Old Testament is a viable alternative explanation. Greta Christina put it extremely well: "In human history, supernatural explanations of phenomena have been replaced by natural explanations thousands upon thousands of times. Natural explanations have been replaced by supernatural ones exactly never. So why would we assume that any given unexplained phenomenon is probably supernatural?"

To take that idea further, as long as we stick with a supernatural explanation of anything in nature, we won't actually learn anything (not to mention that what we think we know is almost certainly wrong). Only searching for a naturalistic (scientific, if you will) explanation will get us dependable, useful information.

Saying "Goddunnit!" is no answer at all.

just because that certain particles may come into the realm of human observation without a definitive explanation (at least yet), that by no means is justification to say that something can create or will its own existence.

This challenge of yours applies with immensely greater force to this God you keep describing.

Additionally, as you've shown so well with your posts, correct conclusions are dependent on correct premises, and the latter is never guaranteed.

Theists do not assert that God exists with no prior thought as some state.

Oh, I'm sure there's some thought process, it's whether that thought process is rational or not is the question.

It is the intellect and logic that leads one to say that existence of its own accord does not make sense, and then to consider the possibility of an intelligent designer.

And bad logic at that, for all the reasons we've been telling you that you've ignored time and again.

Finally, to briefly touch on virtual particles... just because that certain particles may come into the realm of human observation without a definitive explanation (at least yet), that by no means is justification to say that something can create or will its own existence.

As Thump points out, it was in response to a specific claim you made which is in error. Why do you persist in throwing up these strawmen? I thought you were about logic and reason? If you are, then why do you rely so on logical fallacy?

This is a demonstration of faith on your part... faith in science of some sort.

If using empirical evidence and well-known laws/theorems of science is "faith," then the word has lost all meaning.

But without God the sun would not be here in the first place, nor would it come up tomorrow. There would be no existence.

So you keep asserting and failing to support.

Before you accuse me of God of the gaps, I would like to hear many explanations of time and eternity apart from God.

No you don't. We've already given you quite a few and you simply ignore them and claim that godmustadoneit. And, BTW, you are engaging in god of the gaps.

...but one who has assented to faith through the intellect and the will.

Meaning you have evidence? Let's see it? And, no, making illogical arguments that don't hold up about how the universe had to be created (mostly because you know jack about cosmology or probability or what current big bang theory entails) doesn't cut it.

without Aten the sun would not be here in the first place, nor would it come up tomorrow.

And it is a leap of no credulity to take such an aspect of reality and to assert it as proof that the universe could have always been, or that matter somehow has authority of its own accord.

I introduced that to rebut your obviously incorrect claim that nothing is causeless. I made no claim that it proved anything beyond you being wrong, which claim I renew.

But the rest of your "hard questions for atheists can and will be answered reliably and usefully by examining the evidence and applying logic.

Theists do not assert that God exists with no prior thought as some state. It is the intellect and logic that leads one to say that existence of its own accord does not make sense, and then to consider the possibility of an intelligent designer.

Sarah,
I firmly believe that God has revealed truth for all to know. I think that it takes an open heart to legitimately dialogue about that. I would be happy to write with you or any who so care to.

Finally, to briefly touch on virtual particles... just because that certain particles may come into the realm of human observation without a definitive explanation (at least yet), that by no means is justification to say that something can create or will its own existence. Those particles are coming into observation amidst a realm of the universe, many of which are not observable, in which other realities are already present. And it is a leap of no credulity to take such an aspect of reality and to assert it as proof that the universe could have always been, or that matter somehow has authority of its own accord.

One more....

We can be quite sure that sun isn't going to get stuck in the middle of the night, and leave us in perpetual darkness, if we don't say the right prayers. You and I therefore know perfectly well that "the sun will come up tomorrow...without God."

This is a demonstration of faith on your part... faith in science of some sort. But without God the sun would not be here in the first place, nor would it come up tomorrow. There would be no existence. How does the "continuous process" of sunrise have any authority? How or why did it start? Before you accuse me of God of the gaps, I would like to hear many explanations of time and eternity apart from God. Because though many here do not want to admit it, a theist is not automatically a "God of the gaps" philosopher by any stretch, but one who has assented to faith through the intellect and the will.

God is not a material being

This is not evidence fo Apsu's non-existence. Why do you hate Apsu? Apsu loves you and wants you worship him! Otherwise...

Because, as I understand the divine revelation buffet, it's all you can eat for eternity, but only one item.

Or, did God reveal himself to you personally?

I thought you were a deist, and I got all excited to talk to you, but now I'm not.

Unless God revealed himself to you personally, and then I'll be excited again.

Let me pick out just one of your rich assortment of staw man assertions:

Many atheists have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow, though again without God

A fine example for further reflection.

The ancients might indeed have hoped and prayed that the sun would rise each day and end the darkness. Maybe it would have seemed risky to disbelieve the hand of God and hope that the sun would rise nevertheless. To be on the safe side, they might have sacrificed some captured enemy soldiers on the high altar at Tikal.

I trust you will agree that we have achieved a somewhat deeper understanding of what is really going on. It turned out that for practical purposes, the sun is stationary -- we're the ones in motion, as the earth turns on its axis. "Sunrise" is a continuous process, that has been going on for billions of years, thanks to the inertia of the spinning earth. We can be quite sure that sun isn't going to get stuck in the middle of the night, and leave us in perpetual darkness, if we don't say the right prayers. You and I therefore know perfectly well that "the sun will come up tomorrow...without God."

That is, of course, an easy one -- Aristarchus of Samos had if figured out in 270 BC. But the rest of your "hard questions for atheists" -- concerning the origin of the universe, human morals and ethics, the historicity of Jesus -- can and will be answered reliably and usefully by examining the evidence and applying logic. Saying "Goddunnit!" is no answer at all.