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	<title>Comments on: Flat Earth Follies: The Religious Right&#039;s Egg Crusade</title>
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	<description>NIGHTTIME IS FOR DREAMING. DAYLIGHT IS FOR ACTION.</description>
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		<title>By: Rollingforest</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-58320</link>
		<dc:creator>Rollingforest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-58320</guid>
		<description>If they set up a program that paid people not to get an abortion but to give up their child for adoption instead, I bet it would decrease abortion, but I&#039;m betting it would also raise a lot of controversy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they set up a program that paid people not to get an abortion but to give up their child for adoption instead, I bet it would decrease abortion, but I'm betting it would also raise a lot of controversy.</p>
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		<title>By: Kennypo65</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-58309</link>
		<dc:creator>Kennypo65</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 03:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-58309</guid>
		<description>@Rollingforest: The premature birth is still a birth so they are not excluded from my definition. In the interest of full disclosure, I happen to agree with you that late term abortions should be restricted to medical necessity. In all honesty, I would like to see the need for abortions greatly reduced, which is why I am an advocate for comprehensive sex ed, and safe and effective birth control. Actually, I would prefer that adoption were utilised more. Of course this is not a perfect world, and this is only my opinion. It is very telling that pro lifers tend to focus on making laws to restrict a woman&#039;s right to choose instead of making the choice of adoption more appealing. There are lots of good people who want children but can&#039;t have them that would make great parents if given the chance. I even have an idea what the prolifers can say about adoptions. They could say something like a child is a gift from God, but perhaps it&#039;s one that you weren&#039;t meant to keep. You were meant to give it to others. But adoption requires nine months of commitment and dedication, whereas banning abortion can be reduced to a sound bite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rollingforest: The premature birth is still a birth so they are not excluded from my definition. In the interest of full disclosure, I happen to agree with you that late term abortions should be restricted to medical necessity. In all honesty, I would like to see the need for abortions greatly reduced, which is why I am an advocate for comprehensive sex ed, and safe and effective birth control. Actually, I would prefer that adoption were utilised more. Of course this is not a perfect world, and this is only my opinion. It is very telling that pro lifers tend to focus on making laws to restrict a woman's right to choose instead of making the choice of adoption more appealing. There are lots of good people who want children but can't have them that would make great parents if given the chance. I even have an idea what the prolifers can say about adoptions. They could say something like a child is a gift from God, but perhaps it's one that you weren't meant to keep. You were meant to give it to others. But adoption requires nine months of commitment and dedication, whereas banning abortion can be reduced to a sound bite.</p>
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		<title>By: Rollingforest</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-58308</link>
		<dc:creator>Rollingforest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-58308</guid>
		<description>The answer to &quot;When does life begin?&quot; is 3.8 billion years ago. On the cellular level, DNA gets shuffled and different cells get grouped together differently, but in the end, there is no fundamental difference between a cell that is you and a cell that could become someone else. 

I agree that birth is another one of the major turning points in pregnancy. It is easy to put forward birth or conception as special. There are certainly problems with conception being the start of personhood, but the problem of birth being the start of personhood is that someone could be born premature. They are obviously a person when the come out premature, but if they had been born later, then under the theory you put forth, they wouldn&#039;t be a person until later. I think that many people believe that personhood is connected to something about the baby/fetus, not the location of it at any given time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The answer to "When does life begin?" is 3.8 billion years ago. On the cellular level, DNA gets shuffled and different cells get grouped together differently, but in the end, there is no fundamental difference between a cell that is you and a cell that could become someone else. </p>
<p>I agree that birth is another one of the major turning points in pregnancy. It is easy to put forward birth or conception as special. There are certainly problems with conception being the start of personhood, but the problem of birth being the start of personhood is that someone could be born premature. They are obviously a person when the come out premature, but if they had been born later, then under the theory you put forth, they wouldn't be a person until later. I think that many people believe that personhood is connected to something about the baby/fetus, not the location of it at any given time.</p>
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		<title>By: Kennypo65</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-58307</link>
		<dc:creator>Kennypo65</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 02:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-58307</guid>
		<description>The question is, &quot;When does life begin?&quot; Dozens of complicated arguments and definitions, but no concensus. Yet, the answer is quite simple, so simple in fact that it has been the answer for millenia, crossing all cultural and ethnic barriers, and defined throughout human history.  Life begins at birth. The date on my birth certificate is December 1, not March 1. Why? Because that&#039;s the day I was born. A lot of pro-lifers will defend to the death the rights of the unborn, but once the child is born, especially if he/she is poor and not white, they no longer care about his/her rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is, "When does life begin?" Dozens of complicated arguments and definitions, but no concensus. Yet, the answer is quite simple, so simple in fact that it has been the answer for millenia, crossing all cultural and ethnic barriers, and defined throughout human history.  Life begins at birth. The date on my birth certificate is December 1, not March 1. Why? Because that's the day I was born. A lot of pro-lifers will defend to the death the rights of the unborn, but once the child is born, especially if he/she is poor and not white, they no longer care about his/her rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Rollingforest</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-58267</link>
		<dc:creator>Rollingforest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 04:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-58267</guid>
		<description>Yes, I&#039;m interested in researching the development of the brain more as well to fine tune my theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I'm interested in researching the development of the brain more as well to fine tune my theory.</p>
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		<title>By: DSimon</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-58257</link>
		<dc:creator>DSimon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 00:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-58257</guid>
		<description>Rollingforest, my moral theory about abortion reads pretty similarly to yours, but with the cutoff point at the end of the 2nd trimester. My (layman&#039;s) understanding is that the parts of the brain thought to be required for consciousness actually develop, at the earliest, pretty close to the end of the 2nd trimester, even though the brain as a whole starts developing earlier. &quot;Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny&quot; and all that jazz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rollingforest, my moral theory about abortion reads pretty similarly to yours, but with the cutoff point at the end of the 2nd trimester. My (layman's) understanding is that the parts of the brain thought to be required for consciousness actually develop, at the earliest, pretty close to the end of the 2nd trimester, even though the brain as a whole starts developing earlier. "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" and all that jazz.</p>
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		<title>By: Rollingforest</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-58240</link>
		<dc:creator>Rollingforest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 04:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-58240</guid>
		<description>I take a moderate approach on abortion. Personhood is based on consciousness in my opinion. Consciousness is connected to the brain. The brain develops during the second trimester. Killing a person is murder, therefore killing someone who is conscious is murder, therefore killing someone with a brain is murder, therefore killing someone in the second or third trimester of pregnancy is murder. Thus, while I feel the woman has a right to abortion during the first trimester, during the second or third abortion should only be allowed to save the woman’s life.

In regard to the idea that a baby is a parasite: I think that, contrary to what Sarah said, we DO have a moral obligation to help people in need unless doing so would hurt us more than they are hurt now. The fact that most people don’t do this is no excuse. Also, I feel that parents have an especially strong ethical requirement to care for their children which would make late term abortion especially wrong. 

(notice how religion is not needed for this argument at all)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take a moderate approach on abortion. Personhood is based on consciousness in my opinion. Consciousness is connected to the brain. The brain develops during the second trimester. Killing a person is murder, therefore killing someone who is conscious is murder, therefore killing someone with a brain is murder, therefore killing someone in the second or third trimester of pregnancy is murder. Thus, while I feel the woman has a right to abortion during the first trimester, during the second or third abortion should only be allowed to save the woman’s life.</p>
<p>In regard to the idea that a baby is a parasite: I think that, contrary to what Sarah said, we DO have a moral obligation to help people in need unless doing so would hurt us more than they are hurt now. The fact that most people don’t do this is no excuse. Also, I feel that parents have an especially strong ethical requirement to care for their children which would make late term abortion especially wrong. </p>
<p>(notice how religion is not needed for this argument at all)</p>
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		<title>By: Modusoperandi</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-52170</link>
		<dc:creator>Modusoperandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-52170</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Arch&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;&quot;Go to official Church documents, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
Forgive me because my eyes glazed over a few pages into that 64 page tract (conveniently not using terms like &quot;double effect&quot; or &quot;ectopic&quot;), but it looks like they&#039;re fans of repetition.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Principle of Double Effect... the woman&#039;s life is to be saved in ectopic pregnancy, but by a means that does not include direct abortion of the child.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
That&#039;s theological nitpicking to get around a theological conclusion. &quot;We can&#039;t suck the embryo out of the tube that it will eventually rupture, causing you to bleed out and potentially die if you don&#039;t happen to be in close proximity to a hospital at the time, but we &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; wait for it to do that, then cut out the torn tube, which just &lt;i&gt;happens&lt;/i&gt; to contain an embryo.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Arch</b> <i>"Go to official Church documents, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church."</i><br />
Forgive me because my eyes glazed over a few pages into that 64 page tract (conveniently not using terms like "double effect" or "ectopic"), but it looks like they're fans of repetition.</p>
<p><i>"Principle of Double Effect... the woman's life is to be saved in ectopic pregnancy, but by a means that does not include direct abortion of the child."</i><br />
That's theological nitpicking to get around a theological conclusion. "We can't suck the embryo out of the tube that it will eventually rupture, causing you to bleed out and potentially die if you don't happen to be in close proximity to a hospital at the time, but we <i>can</i> wait for it to do that, then cut out the torn tube, which just <i>happens</i> to contain an embryo."</p>
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		<title>By: Thumpalumpacus</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-52024</link>
		<dc:creator>Thumpalumpacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-52024</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The woman&#039;s life is recognized just as much as the child&#039;s in the principle of double effect, and in the case of ectopic pregnancy, the woman&#039;s life is the one that can be saved and the one that receives direct effort to save... Principle of Double Effect... the woman&#039;s life is to be saved in ectopic pregnancy, but by a means that does not include direct abortion of the child.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is silly.  Whether or not an intermediary exists between an action and a result doesn&#039;t reduce the moral weight of the decision being made.  Isn&#039;t it your own Bible that declares, &quot;By the fruit shall ye know the tree&quot;?

What you are doing is twisting desperately to avoid what you clearly see as a contradiction in your espoused morality and the practical effects it has.  

Sarah is right.  This is nothing more than the continued policy of the Catholic heirarchy to subjugate women, and is yet another blot on their record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The woman's life is recognized just as much as the child's in the principle of double effect, and in the case of ectopic pregnancy, the woman's life is the one that can be saved and the one that receives direct effort to save... Principle of Double Effect... the woman's life is to be saved in ectopic pregnancy, but by a means that does not include direct abortion of the child.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is silly.  Whether or not an intermediary exists between an action and a result doesn't reduce the moral weight of the decision being made.  Isn't it your own Bible that declares, "By the fruit shall ye know the tree"?</p>
<p>What you are doing is twisting desperately to avoid what you clearly see as a contradiction in your espoused morality and the practical effects it has.  </p>
<p>Sarah is right.  This is nothing more than the continued policy of the Catholic heirarchy to subjugate women, and is yet another blot on their record.</p>
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		<title>By: Scotlyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-52021</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-52021</guid>
		<description>Wow - so there is a movement to protect female eggs?  And I used to think Monty Python&#039;s &quot;Every Sperm is Sacred&quot; was pure hyperbole!

Further to the logical problems noted above, an interesting illustration of the problems of carrying the battle &quot;backwards&quot; (in the human embryological development sense) in legal terms &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0226/breaking81.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Irish constitutional law does vigourously protect the life of the &quot;unborn&quot; with the effect of forbidding 99.99% of abortions (legal definitions even here are tricky things).  But the case above concerned a separated couple&#039;s disagreement about the fate of frozen embryos produced from their respective egg and sperm prior to their separation.  The woman argued - unsuccessfully - that the embryos came under the heading of &quot;unborn&quot; and had a right to be implanted and carried to term, whereas the man argued - successfully - that the unimplanted embryos did not satisfy the criteria to be protected as &quot;unborn,&quot; and moreover, that he had the right not to become a father against his will.  His argument having carried the day indicates where Irish women need to focus our energies in proposing liberalisation of our own abortion laws - we can now assert that there is a legal precedent in favour of the principle that people cannot be forced to become parents against their will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow - so there is a movement to protect female eggs?  And I used to think Monty Python's "Every Sperm is Sacred" was pure hyperbole!</p>
<p>Further to the logical problems noted above, an interesting illustration of the problems of carrying the battle "backwards" (in the human embryological development sense) in legal terms <a href="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0226/breaking81.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Irish constitutional law does vigourously protect the life of the "unborn" with the effect of forbidding 99.99% of abortions (legal definitions even here are tricky things).  But the case above concerned a separated couple's disagreement about the fate of frozen embryos produced from their respective egg and sperm prior to their separation.  The woman argued - unsuccessfully - that the embryos came under the heading of "unborn" and had a right to be implanted and carried to term, whereas the man argued - successfully - that the unimplanted embryos did not satisfy the criteria to be protected as "unborn," and moreover, that he had the right not to become a father against his will.  His argument having carried the day indicates where Irish women need to focus our energies in proposing liberalisation of our own abortion laws - we can now assert that there is a legal precedent in favour of the principle that people cannot be forced to become parents against their will.</p>
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		<title>By: Arch</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-52020</link>
		<dc:creator>Arch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-52020</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; although a casual googling shows Catholics &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Please do not get information on Catholic teaching from wikipedia, CNN, googling, etc.  Church teaching is regularly misrepresented by modern media sources.  Go to official Church documents, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
&lt;blockquote&gt; when you vote for a party that denies socialized medicine you indirectly cause the deaths of hundreds of people who would otherwise have been saved. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
The big word here is indirectly.  To indirectly impact someone in a negative way, which would likely be undesired, is not the same as a choice to make a direct, desired action toward someone to end their life.
Regarding the death penalty, you bring up a good point.  There are Christians who think the death penalty is okay, which is contrary to Catholic teaching.  The Church teaches a consistent ethic on life, and all Christians ought to uphold that, which certainly includes being against the death penalty. 
&lt;blockquote&gt; This can only mean you favor letting the woman die, since that is what will occur without an abortion. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
This is a false statement.  The woman&#039;s life is recognized just as much as the child&#039;s in the principle of double effect, and in the case of ectopic pregnancy, the woman&#039;s life is the one that can be saved and the one that receives direct effort to save...  Principle of Double Effect...  the woman&#039;s life is to be saved in ectopic pregnancy, but by a means that does not include direct abortion of the child.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> although a casual googling shows Catholics </p></blockquote>
<p>Please do not get information on Catholic teaching from wikipedia, CNN, googling, etc.  Church teaching is regularly misrepresented by modern media sources.  Go to official Church documents, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.<br />
<a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm</a></p>
<blockquote><p> when you vote for a party that denies socialized medicine you indirectly cause the deaths of hundreds of people who would otherwise have been saved. </p></blockquote>
<p>The big word here is indirectly.  To indirectly impact someone in a negative way, which would likely be undesired, is not the same as a choice to make a direct, desired action toward someone to end their life.<br />
Regarding the death penalty, you bring up a good point.  There are Christians who think the death penalty is okay, which is contrary to Catholic teaching.  The Church teaches a consistent ethic on life, and all Christians ought to uphold that, which certainly includes being against the death penalty. </p>
<blockquote><p> This can only mean you favor letting the woman die, since that is what will occur without an abortion. </p></blockquote>
<p>This is a false statement.  The woman's life is recognized just as much as the child's in the principle of double effect, and in the case of ectopic pregnancy, the woman's life is the one that can be saved and the one that receives direct effort to save...  Principle of Double Effect...  the woman's life is to be saved in ectopic pregnancy, but by a means that does not include direct abortion of the child.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/11/flat-earth-follies.html#comment-52019</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1194#comment-52019</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In fact, the Church upholds human life as so sacred, that it must be protected from its very beginning to its very end.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Unless the life in question is that of a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, in which case you said specifically that you were against abortion. This can only mean you favor letting the woman die, since that is what will occur without an abortion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In fact, the Church upholds human life as so sacred, that it must be protected from its very beginning to its very end.</p></blockquote>
<p>Unless the life in question is that of a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, in which case you said specifically that you were against abortion. This can only mean you favor letting the woman die, since that is what will occur without an abortion.</p>
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