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	<title>Comments on: Free Speech Still Threatened in Europe</title>
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		<title>By: Scotlyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53495</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53495</guid>
		<description>Ebon, unfortunately, Ireland is the master of the &quot;Irish solution to an Irish problem&quot; - which often consists in pretending there is no problem ... until it blows up in your face.  I would say the authorities have no interest in actually using the law in any particular way, they just wanted to &quot;solve&quot; the original &quot;constitutional&quot; problem, and, as is often the case, did not given sufficient thought to the potential outcomes.  One outcome I could see would be an intensification of religious conflict between fundamentalist Catholics and fundamentalist Muslims (who have not yet made themselves felt as a political force in Ireland, but who may find this an ideal weapon).  Atheist Ireland is a small group, but contains people who have foreseen this and the other potential pitfalls already referred to, and are taking action accordingly, mainly, I think by appealing to the well-developed sense of the absurd, which is also deeply ingrained in Irish culture.   Unfortunately the project for a secular Ireland may be set back if there is a religious (ie Muslim) threat to Catholicism, as one of the historical processes that wedded the Irish to their Catholicism were the Penal Laws which outlawed Mass, priesthood, churches, etc, and which held sway here for over a hundred years or more during British rule.  I don&#039;t yet know what the European Court of Human Rights might do, but there is a whole system of &quot;exceptions&quot; based on &quot;culture,&quot; which may remove this from their purview.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebon, unfortunately, Ireland is the master of the "Irish solution to an Irish problem" - which often consists in pretending there is no problem ... until it blows up in your face.  I would say the authorities have no interest in actually using the law in any particular way, they just wanted to "solve" the original "constitutional" problem, and, as is often the case, did not given sufficient thought to the potential outcomes.  One outcome I could see would be an intensification of religious conflict between fundamentalist Catholics and fundamentalist Muslims (who have not yet made themselves felt as a political force in Ireland, but who may find this an ideal weapon).  Atheist Ireland is a small group, but contains people who have foreseen this and the other potential pitfalls already referred to, and are taking action accordingly, mainly, I think by appealing to the well-developed sense of the absurd, which is also deeply ingrained in Irish culture.   Unfortunately the project for a secular Ireland may be set back if there is a religious (ie Muslim) threat to Catholicism, as one of the historical processes that wedded the Irish to their Catholicism were the Penal Laws which outlawed Mass, priesthood, churches, etc, and which held sway here for over a hundred years or more during British rule.  I don't yet know what the European Court of Human Rights might do, but there is a whole system of "exceptions" based on "culture," which may remove this from their purview.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebonmuse</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53475</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebonmuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 02:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53475</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Another feature of the law is that it comes into force at the same time as the new European Arrest Warrant. So, for example, if the Danish cartoons were published in Ireland, any outraged person based in Ireland could ask to have the Danish publishers extradited to Ireland to face prosecution here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s a chilling thought, Scotlyn. (And I really like the term &quot;incentivizing outrage&quot; - an all too accurate description, unfortunately.) As an Irish citizen, do you see any prospect that this law will actually be enforced? Is this something the European Court of Human Rights might strike down?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Another feature of the law is that it comes into force at the same time as the new European Arrest Warrant. So, for example, if the Danish cartoons were published in Ireland, any outraged person based in Ireland could ask to have the Danish publishers extradited to Ireland to face prosecution here.</p></blockquote>
<p>That's a chilling thought, Scotlyn. (And I really like the term "incentivizing outrage" - an all too accurate description, unfortunately.) As an Irish citizen, do you see any prospect that this law will actually be enforced? Is this something the European Court of Human Rights might strike down?</p>
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		<title>By: D</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53470</link>
		<dc:creator>D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 01:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53470</guid>
		<description>I want to draw Mohammed making out with Miss Piggy, but my tablet is still in the mail.  Argh!

I guess &lt;a href=&quot;http://she-who-chatters.blogspot.com/2010/01/dear-internet-today-i-made-blasphemy.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this will have to do for now&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;b&gt;EDIT:&lt;/b&gt;  This edit is to test my ability to edit.  Success, I presume!
&lt;b&gt;DOUBLE-EDIT:&lt;/b&gt;  Success, I confirm!  Great job, Ebonmuse!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to draw Mohammed making out with Miss Piggy, but my tablet is still in the mail.  Argh!</p>
<p>I guess <a href="http://she-who-chatters.blogspot.com/2010/01/dear-internet-today-i-made-blasphemy.html" rel="nofollow">this will have to do for now</a>.</p>
<p><b>EDIT:</b>  This edit is to test my ability to edit.  Success, I presume!<br />
<b>DOUBLE-EDIT:</b>  Success, I confirm!  Great job, Ebonmuse!</p>
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		<title>By: Scotlyn</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53437</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 12:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53437</guid>
		<description>Ebonmuse: &lt;blockquote&gt;it&#039;s not up to the prosecutor&#039;s discretion whether a speech act constitutes blasphemy or not. Instead, it expressly punishes only speech which &quot;caus[es] outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion&quot;. In other words, if I write an essay mocking Christianity but don&#039;t get an outraged response from Christians, I&#039;m not liable.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Incentivising outrage may be the most dangerous part of this law.  Quoted &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0102/breaking22.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, Michael Nugent of Atheist Ireland said: &lt;blockquote&gt;And it is dangerous because it incentives religious outrage, and because Islamic states led by Pakistan are already using the wording of this Irish law to promote new blasphemy laws at UN level.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Another feature of the law is that it comes into force at the same time as the new European Arrest Warrant.  So, for example, if the Danish cartoons were published in Ireland, any outraged person based in Ireland could ask to have the Danish publishers extradited to Ireland to face prosecution here.

Some background - it was pointed out to the Irish government many years ago that the Irish Constitution mentions blasphemy, but that no government has legislated for it - therefore it was leaving it to common law (ie the courts) to decide how to implement the constitutional prohibition.  The government had two choices - 1) a referendum to remove the reference to blasphemy in the constitution, or 2) make a law. They chose the second and made a balls of it.  The aim of the campaign, of course, is not only to overturn the law, but to remove the reference to blasphemy from the Irish constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebonmuse:<br />
<blockquote>it's not up to the prosecutor's discretion whether a speech act constitutes blasphemy or not. Instead, it expressly punishes only speech which "caus[es] outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion". In other words, if I write an essay mocking Christianity but don't get an outraged response from Christians, I'm not liable.</p></blockquote>
<p>Incentivising outrage may be the most dangerous part of this law.  Quoted <a href="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0102/breaking22.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>, Michael Nugent of Atheist Ireland said:<br />
<blockquote>And it is dangerous because it incentives religious outrage, and because Islamic states led by Pakistan are already using the wording of this Irish law to promote new blasphemy laws at UN level.</p></blockquote>
<p>Another feature of the law is that it comes into force at the same time as the new European Arrest Warrant.  So, for example, if the Danish cartoons were published in Ireland, any outraged person based in Ireland could ask to have the Danish publishers extradited to Ireland to face prosecution here.</p>
<p>Some background - it was pointed out to the Irish government many years ago that the Irish Constitution mentions blasphemy, but that no government has legislated for it - therefore it was leaving it to common law (ie the courts) to decide how to implement the constitutional prohibition.  The government had two choices - 1) a referendum to remove the reference to blasphemy in the constitution, or 2) make a law. They chose the second and made a balls of it.  The aim of the campaign, of course, is not only to overturn the law, but to remove the reference to blasphemy from the Irish constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: FuzzyDuck</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53436</link>
		<dc:creator>FuzzyDuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 11:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53436</guid>
		<description>In many religions &amp; depending on the level of rabid fanaticism of individuals involved, isn&#039;t merely disavowing the existence of the deity a gross insult? Does that mean athiests are by their mere existance a blasphemy &amp; subject to being fined under the law?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In many religions &amp; depending on the level of rabid fanaticism of individuals involved, isn't merely disavowing the existence of the deity a gross insult? Does that mean athiests are by their mere existance a blasphemy &amp; subject to being fined under the law?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53435</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53435</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Or, even better, how about Mohammad getting anally sodomized by Jesus in a gay version of an Islamic paradise?&lt;/blockquote&gt; This kind of assumes Jesus was a virgin.

Actually I&#039;m not sure any purpose is served by going for extremes. A gentle but persistant satire would probably serve us better, liberally sprinkled across all media so that there were no obvious targets for the nut jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Or, even better, how about Mohammad getting anally sodomized by Jesus in a gay version of an Islamic paradise?</p></blockquote>
<p> This kind of assumes Jesus was a virgin.</p>
<p>Actually I'm not sure any purpose is served by going for extremes. A gentle but persistant satire would probably serve us better, liberally sprinkled across all media so that there were no obvious targets for the nut jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: TEP</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53433</link>
		<dc:creator>TEP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 08:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53433</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;TEP, think about how people felt about Jesus in the 1600s, 1700s and in some places even into the 1800s. The Divine Mister M has a few more centuries to go before he&#039;s in the running for most stable personality cult.
Of course you could argue the historicity of Jesus, or at least the extent of his influence on the faith. But that just shifts the focus to Paul, the founder of Christianity.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

______
Jesus never managed to become a dictator, and the religion&lt;i&gt;s&lt;/i&gt; that came about as a result of him likely had very little to do with his actual teachings, and slowly materialised in an ad hoc manner long after his death. There&#039;s little reason to believe that whatever figure or figures the many conflicting Jesus narratives were based on had any real plan or intent to start a new religion, or that he was anything more than your typical crackpot. In contrast, Mohammed ruled over a powerful empire, and carefully crafted a religion around himself in order to make people obey him. Mohammed&#039;s personality cult was of his own doing, whereas Jesus was just some nutter who would have been completely forgotten by history, who by some crazy stroke of luck just happened to have some other people make a viable religion around him, albeit one that likely had little to do with who he actually was. The point being that Jesus was never the head of a regime for which violence in his name could be considered a continuation of; the same is not true for Mohammed, whose regime effectively persists to today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=""><p>TEP, think about how people felt about Jesus in the 1600s, 1700s and in some places even into the 1800s. The Divine Mister M has a few more centuries to go before he's in the running for most stable personality cult.<br />
Of course you could argue the historicity of Jesus, or at least the extent of his influence on the faith. But that just shifts the focus to Paul, the founder of Christianity.
</p></blockquote>
<p>______<br />
Jesus never managed to become a dictator, and the religion<i>s</i> that came about as a result of him likely had very little to do with his actual teachings, and slowly materialised in an ad hoc manner long after his death. There's little reason to believe that whatever figure or figures the many conflicting Jesus narratives were based on had any real plan or intent to start a new religion, or that he was anything more than your typical crackpot. In contrast, Mohammed ruled over a powerful empire, and carefully crafted a religion around himself in order to make people obey him. Mohammed's personality cult was of his own doing, whereas Jesus was just some nutter who would have been completely forgotten by history, who by some crazy stroke of luck just happened to have some other people make a viable religion around him, albeit one that likely had little to do with who he actually was. The point being that Jesus was never the head of a regime for which violence in his name could be considered a continuation of; the same is not true for Mohammed, whose regime effectively persists to today.</p>
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		<title>By: Javaman</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53420</link>
		<dc:creator>Javaman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 15:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53420</guid>
		<description>To Jim Speiser:
I have a better idea. How about we take this to the next level with an artistic rendering of Mohammad deflowering the Virgin Mary (hey, she may be one of the virgins a Muslim meets in their version of an Islamic paradise after death). Or, even better, how about Mohammad getting anally sodomized by Jesus in a gay version of an Islamic paradise?

I can&#039;t believe that after the huge Ireland Catholic school sex scandal involving Irish priests sexually abusing children for many years, they now pass a blasphemy law. I bet you the Irish Catholic church will hide behind this law to protect themselves from any future investigations or allegations of child sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Jim Speiser:<br />
I have a better idea. How about we take this to the next level with an artistic rendering of Mohammad deflowering the Virgin Mary (hey, she may be one of the virgins a Muslim meets in their version of an Islamic paradise after death). Or, even better, how about Mohammad getting anally sodomized by Jesus in a gay version of an Islamic paradise?</p>
<p>I can't believe that after the huge Ireland Catholic school sex scandal involving Irish priests sexually abusing children for many years, they now pass a blasphemy law. I bet you the Irish Catholic church will hide behind this law to protect themselves from any future investigations or allegations of child sex.</p>
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		<title>By: UNRR</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53419</link>
		<dc:creator>UNRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53419</guid>
		<description>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 1/3/2010, at &lt;a href=&quot;http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Unreligious Right&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 1/3/2010, at <a href="http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The Unreligious Right</a></p>
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		<title>By: Broggly</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53418</link>
		<dc:creator>Broggly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 12:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53418</guid>
		<description>I have an idea for a Muhammad comic. Muhammad and Aisha are in his tent. The Prophet has his head in his hands, exasperated. He&#039;s saying &quot;I just don&#039;t understand why these satirists are so &lt;i&gt;mean&lt;/i&gt; to me.&quot; Aisha has an unsympathetic look on her face, as if to say &quot;What a big baby&quot;. The tent flap is open and in the background you can see a man being executed.

TEP, think about how people felt about Jesus in the 1600s, 1700s and in some places even into the 1800s. The Divine Mister M has a few more centuries to go before he&#039;s in the running for most stable personality cult.
Of course you could argue the historicity of Jesus, or at least the extent of his influence on the faith. But that just shifts the focus to Paul, the founder of Christianity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have an idea for a Muhammad comic. Muhammad and Aisha are in his tent. The Prophet has his head in his hands, exasperated. He's saying "I just don't understand why these satirists are so <i>mean</i> to me." Aisha has an unsympathetic look on her face, as if to say "What a big baby". The tent flap is open and in the background you can see a man being executed.</p>
<p>TEP, think about how people felt about Jesus in the 1600s, 1700s and in some places even into the 1800s. The Divine Mister M has a few more centuries to go before he's in the running for most stable personality cult.<br />
Of course you could argue the historicity of Jesus, or at least the extent of his influence on the faith. But that just shifts the focus to Paul, the founder of Christianity.</p>
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		<title>By: TEP</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53416</link>
		<dc:creator>TEP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 08:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53416</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve got to admire Mohammed&#039;s ability to create such a long-lasting cult of personality. Hitler was seen as a messiah figure for many, but for all the fanaticism of his following, only for a couple of decades did one have to fear being beaten up by the SA or being sent to a concentration camp by the SS for drawing cartoons criticising him. These days, ridiculing Hitler is commonplace, and nobody bats an eyelid when somebody does so. Compare that with Mohammed, who is still able to inspire riots and death squads determined to stifle all criticism whenever somebody says something mildly critical, over 1300 years after his death. Mohammed would have to go down as the most successful dictator in history, managing to create an apparatus of state terror that has managed to persist for so long after his physical demise. It really makes the SS, the KGB, Saddam&#039;s Republican Guard, all look quite feeble in comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You've got to admire Mohammed's ability to create such a long-lasting cult of personality. Hitler was seen as a messiah figure for many, but for all the fanaticism of his following, only for a couple of decades did one have to fear being beaten up by the SA or being sent to a concentration camp by the SS for drawing cartoons criticising him. These days, ridiculing Hitler is commonplace, and nobody bats an eyelid when somebody does so. Compare that with Mohammed, who is still able to inspire riots and death squads determined to stifle all criticism whenever somebody says something mildly critical, over 1300 years after his death. Mohammed would have to go down as the most successful dictator in history, managing to create an apparatus of state terror that has managed to persist for so long after his physical demise. It really makes the SS, the KGB, Saddam's Republican Guard, all look quite feeble in comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: SuperHappyJen</title>
		<link>http://www.daylightatheism.org/2010/01/free-speech-still-threatened-in-europe.html#comment-53414</link>
		<dc:creator>SuperHappyJen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 02:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daylightatheism.org/?p=1272#comment-53414</guid>
		<description>Perhaps we should have a Blasphemous Mohammad Art Contest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we should have a Blasphemous Mohammad Art Contest.</p>
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